Question for people who know science.
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Stephen Paea for those unaware.
There are ~8 billion people on earth. All of us have different bone circumferences, bone densities, muscle masses, muscle densities, internal organ sizes, propensity to build and retain muscle, percentage of fast-twitch muscle vs slow twitch, etc.
Of all 8 billion humans, Stephen Paea is an *extreme outlier* on the combination of all of these. To put numbers on it, in the top millionth of a percent. Not a typo.
He is 100% Asian, descended from indigenous Taiwanese people. Picture an incredibly skinny but wirey, strong, and fast Taiwanese man. Then increase the size of that man's wirey muscle and internal organs, until the person weighs 300 lbs. Yes he looks strong, but he is even stronger than he looks.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FwfhmuEr10Q&t=15s
He's the strongest NFL player in history according to the NFL strength test. Even stronger than people who cheated and tested positive for steroids.
If the only Asians in America were from Tonga, Samoa and Hawaii? Then US medical textbooks would make all kinds of horrifically wrong conclusions about Asian people and health risks.
️They'd apply outlier observations to billions of people.
That's what happens to Black people. Not quite as extreme, but same principle.
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Question for people who know science.
I know that race is a social construct. The fact that I'm 'Black' has no meaning beyond my melanin levels. It doesn't, for instance, make me a better rapper than you. Culture might, but melanin doesn't.
So why are there medical differences between races? Black women have more fibroids, & have their babies a week earlier than white women. And Black men are more prone to type 2 diabetes.
Why's that? Culture? Racism? Something else?
@davidnjoku I found this to be a very interesting paper that basically found that Black babies born to immigrants had normal birthweight, but the next generation had lower birthweight. They posit this is due to the cumulative effects of discrimination over the lifetimes of Black mothers in the US.
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Question for people who know science.
I know that race is a social construct. The fact that I'm 'Black' has no meaning beyond my melanin levels. It doesn't, for instance, make me a better rapper than you. Culture might, but melanin doesn't.
So why are there medical differences between races? Black women have more fibroids, & have their babies a week earlier than white women. And Black men are more prone to type 2 diabetes.
Why's that? Culture? Racism? Something else?
Genetic characteristics of ethnicities. The significant comment here is that overall the genetic diversity of any ethnic group. It’s about the same.
As far as medical differences, though, you have to factor in socioeconomic elements, diet proximity to healthy or unhealthy environment the kinds of jobs available.
I will know that your choice of things to look at, can also be contrasted with other things that people of color are better off on and don’t suffer as much disease from
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Great questions!
The short answer is that things like having babies a week earlier doesn't affect Black people more. It doesn't. It affects *Black people from a tiny part of West Africa* more.
Medical textbooks tested Black American people who are almost all West African (Nigeria, Ivory Coast, Ghana) or southwestern African (Angola).
They just say that Black people have this, ignoring the fact that most of the human genetic diversity on earth is in Africa.
️@mekkaokereke That's scary. I remember, for instance, when my wife was pregnant that the doctors regularly made certain adjustments based on the fact that she's Black. 'Luckily' she's of Nigerian heritage, but I think you're saying that if she was of, say, Namibian origin they might be applying incorrect metrics to her.
(I know there's a lot more than just that to being a doctor, but you get what I'm saying.)
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@davidnjoku I found this to be a very interesting paper that basically found that Black babies born to immigrants had normal birthweight, but the next generation had lower birthweight. They posit this is due to the cumulative effects of discrimination over the lifetimes of Black mothers in the US.
@minmi Thank you. That's really interesting.
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@davidnjoku And e.g. both northern European and Saudi people independently developed lactose tolerance into adulthood.
@davep lactose tolerante into adulthood appeared in a couple of African peoples first. @davidnjoku
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@davep That's a good point. But there are a billion Black people, and we're genetically more diverse than all of the rest of the world put together, so it's a bit strange (to my non-scientific mind) that there'll be traits that affect all of us.
@davidnjoku Imbeg to differ. More Protection against carcinogenic UV rays from the sun, on average. But do not confuse African-Americans with all Black people. @davep
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@davidnjoku UK or the US whites need to talk about races. Their identity is build on not being Black. They need Black people for their whiteness. Of course forgetting that they themselves are human, too, even without Black people. @weddige @davep
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@davidnjoku @PurpleJillybeans yeah, I’m trying to remember something I read on the internet 20 years ago, so do NOT quote me, but I think African American men have a higher incidence of heart disease. So that’s a pretty specific group. I’m really curious why.
@topher1kenobe the risk factor for heart disease is racism, not race. There have been papers on that. @davidnjoku @PurpleJillybeans
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@mekkaokereke That's scary. I remember, for instance, when my wife was pregnant that the doctors regularly made certain adjustments based on the fact that she's Black. 'Luckily' she's of Nigerian heritage, but I think you're saying that if she was of, say, Namibian origin they might be applying incorrect metrics to her.
(I know there's a lot more than just that to being a doctor, but you get what I'm saying.)
Yeah, and even with the knowledge that she is Nigerian, US medical stuff causes us to get worse care and be mistreated to death.
My dad keeps a lot of his Black patients alive, because he was trained in Nigeria, London, and the US, and knows all the ways that US healthcare provides worse care to Black people.
PulseOx readings are wrong for us. Skin diseases present differently. Bodyweight and birth weight readings are different. BMI charts, which are bad for everyone, are especially wrong for us. Pain is often ignored, or considered to be faking. Expensive treatments and tests are under-prescribed. Etc.
If you're going to have a baby in the US and you are Black? Even if you are wealthy? Get a doctor that understands how US medicine can fail Black patients. The doctor doesn't have to be Black. They just have to care enough to have looked into these differences.
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@topher1kenobe the risk factor for heart disease is racism, not race. There have been papers on that. @davidnjoku @PurpleJillybeans
@carl @davidnjoku @PurpleJillybeans ah, that’s great to know! Thanks a bunch.
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Yeah, and even with the knowledge that she is Nigerian, US medical stuff causes us to get worse care and be mistreated to death.
My dad keeps a lot of his Black patients alive, because he was trained in Nigeria, London, and the US, and knows all the ways that US healthcare provides worse care to Black people.
PulseOx readings are wrong for us. Skin diseases present differently. Bodyweight and birth weight readings are different. BMI charts, which are bad for everyone, are especially wrong for us. Pain is often ignored, or considered to be faking. Expensive treatments and tests are under-prescribed. Etc.
If you're going to have a baby in the US and you are Black? Even if you are wealthy? Get a doctor that understands how US medicine can fail Black patients. The doctor doesn't have to be Black. They just have to care enough to have looked into these differences.
@mekkaokereke Wow, that thing you just said about BMI has answered a question I've had for close to 20 years! I'm tall and kinda skinny - but my BMI has always put me down as overweight.
Should've guessed that it's because I'm Black!
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Question for people who know science.
I know that race is a social construct. The fact that I'm 'Black' has no meaning beyond my melanin levels. It doesn't, for instance, make me a better rapper than you. Culture might, but melanin doesn't.
So why are there medical differences between races? Black women have more fibroids, & have their babies a week earlier than white women. And Black men are more prone to type 2 diabetes.
Why's that? Culture? Racism? Something else?
@davidnjoku One of the examples of a race-based health trait that people mention is sickle-cell trait. But this is an adaptation to malaria, and parts of Africa which do not have malaria, like most of South Africa, so not have sickle-cell trait to the same extent as Africans closer to the equator
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If the only Asians in America were from Tonga, Samoa and Hawaii? Then US medical textbooks would make all kinds of horrifically wrong conclusions about Asian people and health risks.
️They'd apply outlier observations to billions of people.
That's what happens to Black people. Not quite as extreme, but same principle.
@mekkaokereke @weddige @davidnjoku @davep
After reading over this interesting thread, there’s a point that you and others raise that is worth making explicit: individual humans are shaped by their genes, their physical environment, and their cultural environment, so it often doesn’t make sense to say that one is more important than the others. The problem with the idea of race is not that genes play no role at all in human development, nor that traits that we associate with race have no correlation whatsoever with other traits. The problem is that the traits we choose to associate with race are socially determined, arbitrary, and not much use for classifying the genetic diversity of humans.
A good source on this topic is Richard Lewontin, who did foundational work in establishing the science of human genetic diversity and was a committed public intellectual. The link here is to a series of lectures that were published under the title, “Biology as Ideology.”
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@davep That's a good point. But there are a billion Black people, and we're genetically more diverse than all of the rest of the world put together, so it's a bit strange (to my non-scientific mind) that there'll be traits that affect all of us.
@davidnjoku @davep That's the thing: I don't think it could be said that [insert race-based trait here] affects all billion Black people. The fact that Black populations in Western Hemisphere are mostly descended from West Africans causes a sampling bias
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@davidnjoku One of the examples of a race-based health trait that people mention is sickle-cell trait. But this is an adaptation to malaria, and parts of Africa which do not have malaria, like most of South Africa, so not have sickle-cell trait to the same extent as Africans closer to the equator
@jmopp Yes, I should've thought of that. My ex has sickle cell disorder and we've spent many, many days in ICU.
But as a result, my kids are less likely than me to catch malaria. Which is nice for them, cos malaria isn't fun.
Everyone says sickle cell is a Black thing, but you're right, people from your part of the continent don't have it as much as we do.
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@mekkaokereke Wow, that thing you just said about BMI has answered a question I've had for close to 20 years! I'm tall and kinda skinny - but my BMI has always put me down as overweight.
Should've guessed that it's because I'm Black!
agree, BMI is such a eugenic crock.
Thank you for pointing out the extreme over-generalizations of Black health! TILGenetics is not my field, but AFAICT people who survive major traumas like chattel slavery, terrorist attacks, and genocide, and then become pregnant pass on epigenetic changes to their children.
So imo that's in the mix along with present medical racism and increased environmental exposure to carcinogens and fresh veg access.
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Question for people who know science.
I know that race is a social construct. The fact that I'm 'Black' has no meaning beyond my melanin levels. It doesn't, for instance, make me a better rapper than you. Culture might, but melanin doesn't.
So why are there medical differences between races? Black women have more fibroids, & have their babies a week earlier than white women. And Black men are more prone to type 2 diabetes.
Why's that? Culture? Racism? Something else?
@davidnjoku the are genetic traits for some regions, ie. central africa tends to higher rates of sickle cell anima as the same mutation gives a resistance to malaria. what you're talking about is mostly racism though
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Question for people who know science.
I know that race is a social construct. The fact that I'm 'Black' has no meaning beyond my melanin levels. It doesn't, for instance, make me a better rapper than you. Culture might, but melanin doesn't.
So why are there medical differences between races? Black women have more fibroids, & have their babies a week earlier than white women. And Black men are more prone to type 2 diabetes.
Why's that? Culture? Racism? Something else?
@davidnjoku
It's just genetics. -
@davep lactose tolerante into adulthood appeared in a couple of African peoples first. @davidnjoku
@carl @davidnjoku
Interesting, thanks. I guess the trait must have spontaneously become prevalent in various pastoral peoples.
