The Parliament of Estonia is orders of magnitude smarter than whoever is in the Parliament of Canada (including Mark Carney).
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…for better or worse; They do have internet-based voting there
I read up on Estonia's Digital ID Infrastructure.
If I were to compare it to British Columbia's (the province that I reside in) BCID system, I'm definitely leaning towards Estonia's model.
Both BCID and Estonia collect the same mounts of PII, but Estonia provides more transparency and control, where as BCID is a lot more opaque.
I'm not entirely against age-based bans, and I'd imagine Estonia would be a lot more competent for rolling out age restrictions.
I just don't have confidence that Canada can pull it off.
And even if we had a competent infrastructure, why 16? When it comes to social media, how "harmful" it is, age doesn't have any bearing.
16 is arbitrary, and if anything, it's just a tool to minimize liability.
It's same mindset of pro-lifers: caring about a human while in the womb (or at least expecting others to care), but throwing all due care out the window once the human is born.
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@manlycoffee why not both?
Sal Rahman (@manlycoffee@techhub.social)
@NicelyManifest@mastodon.social most of us are concerned about the downstream privacy impact being much worse than what "harm" that social media has on young people. Not to mention, even then, another pushback to callout is that people much older are also not better off, so how do we address those?
TechHub (techhub.social)
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@Hiltibrant @manlycoffee Yeah but showing a physical ID card to a teller is a very different proposal than the dystopian (and entirely ineffective) age verification systems. Kids have been bypassing web restrictions since time immemorial. How do you think we went to Newgrounds on school computers 15 or 20 years ago, because they let us? We just brought Firefox Portable onthumb drives, or went through proxies.
None of this has anything to do with protecting children. Politicians have been using that line to have their way forever, and they get away with it because it's a different set of parents each time and humanity collectively has a short memory (which is why it's currently 1939 again in the ol' US of A).
You pretty much nailed it why I don't like age-based bans on social media.
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@manlycoffee Ignorant proposal! Social media is a peril drug for the brain development. If there are age restrictions for some legal drugs like alcohol or cannabis, it must be the same restriction for the use of social media until a certain age. 16 is too early as the brain finishes its development by the age of 21.
Sal Rahman (@manlycoffee@techhub.social)
@NicelyManifest@mastodon.social most of us are concerned about the downstream privacy impact being much worse than what "harm" that social media has on young people. Not to mention, even then, another pushback to callout is that people much older are also not better off, so how do we address those?
TechHub (techhub.social)
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@manlycoffee personally is from both. Internet is also kinda like drugs. Sure kids find there way. But there is also lot of sadness online doing also. Kids also meet offline other kids. If there vertification in place you can regulate big tech also.
Nah.
Sal Rahman (@manlycoffee@techhub.social)
@NicelyManifest@mastodon.social most of us are concerned about the downstream privacy impact being much worse than what "harm" that social media has on young people. Not to mention, even then, another pushback to callout is that people much older are also not better off, so how do we address those?
TechHub (techhub.social)
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You pretty much nailed it why I don't like age-based bans on social media.
@manlycoffee @Hiltibrant I definitely do agree with their premise though. Social media is the worst kind of brain rot, and hellish for neural reward pathways especially—but not only—for still developing brains. I might feel more like there was a conversation to be had about efficacy if I thought that it was just misguided rather than entirely disingenuous policy.
[Huge tangent incoming]
Personally, I'm even more offended by legislation requiring age verification on operating systems. It does a pretty good job of illustrating just how technologically inept the people with the power to write legislation can be. It's why we were putting teenagers in jail for playing with phones in the 80s, or why people were receiving terrifying legal demands from companies that don't sell products or services but just collect patents and write threatening demand letters in the 2000s and 2010s, and why farmers can't repair their farming equipment (or why anybody can't repair most anything these days without being real ghetto about it) or (depending on the brand; purchase wisely) you can't buy a cheap ink cartridge without harvesting a chip off of the old one and manufacturers can get away with selling 3mL of ink in a big fancy shell for $55 a pop, and […] (I could do this all day, but I'll spare you lol).
I definitely lost my own point there, but basically: it makes me uncomfortable to have somebody deciding what a $1000+ box I just bought will and won't do for me, and you can be sure that as soon as they can get away with changing that age field into actual third-party verification, they will, and that is an extremely unsettling future (as if the present wasn't already unsettling enough).
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The Parliament of Estonia is orders of magnitude smarter than whoever is in the Parliament of Canada (including Mark Carney).
"Europe should regulate Big Tech instead of banning kids from social media, Estonia says"
Europe should regulate Big Tech instead of banning kids from social media, Estonia says
Banning kids from social media won’t work, as they “will find very quickly the ways to go around and to still use social media,” Estonian Education Minister Kristina Kallas said.
POLITICO (www.politico.eu)
@manlycoffee
Why regulate Big Tech if we can boycott it?(Also, why write about banning kids from social media? Kids are only banned from adtech, which is at best quasi-social and shouldn't be indicated with a term that fits platforms in the fediverse, which are truly social in every aspect. Words matter...)
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@manlycoffee
Why regulate Big Tech if we can boycott it?(Also, why write about banning kids from social media? Kids are only banned from adtech, which is at best quasi-social and shouldn't be indicated with a term that fits platforms in the fediverse, which are truly social in every aspect. Words matter...)
@manlycoffee
Regulating Big Tech is like playing whack-a-mole, or, as the Dutch would say, mopping while the tap is running. -
R relay@relay.infosec.exchange shared this topic
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@manlycoffee They should do both.
Too many ways phones are toxic to child development.
@NicelyManifest @manlycoffee Authoritarian bullshit like that is even more "toxic to child development".
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@NicelyManifest @manlycoffee Authoritarian bullshit like that is even more "toxic to child development".
@manlycoffee Oh, it's that guy again. I love Mastodon profile notes. Already had noted: "Pro child abuse (denying access to info)"
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@manlycoffee Oh, it's that guy again. I love Mastodon profile notes. Already had noted: "Pro child abuse (denying access to info)"
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RE: https://hachyderm.io/@dalias/116318373945946992
@manlycoffee Funny, I have a toot just like that.
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The Parliament of Estonia is orders of magnitude smarter than whoever is in the Parliament of Canada (including Mark Carney).
"Europe should regulate Big Tech instead of banning kids from social media, Estonia says"
Europe should regulate Big Tech instead of banning kids from social media, Estonia says
Banning kids from social media won’t work, as they “will find very quickly the ways to go around and to still use social media,” Estonian Education Minister Kristina Kallas said.
POLITICO (www.politico.eu)
@manlycoffee Age checks *ONLY* never made any sense.
"To all those adults being harmed by social media, well, sucks to be you I guess, now upload that ID.
Sincerely,
Your totally caring government
" -
The Parliament of Estonia is orders of magnitude smarter than whoever is in the Parliament of Canada (including Mark Carney).
"Europe should regulate Big Tech instead of banning kids from social media, Estonia says"
Europe should regulate Big Tech instead of banning kids from social media, Estonia says
Banning kids from social media won’t work, as they “will find very quickly the ways to go around and to still use social media,” Estonian Education Minister Kristina Kallas said.
POLITICO (www.politico.eu)
@manlycoffee The assumption that both sides here now want to codify is that small children must be tethered to remote central computers running secret attention-manipulating algorithms, and potentially every other person on Earth, unsupervised. Absurd just 15y ago, and still none of its proponents will explicitly demand it, because it still sounds insane when it is articulated.
This shit is getting scary fast because the dialogue around it is so half-baked. Like what we have now is equivalent to Clipper Chips and a boot planted directly on the face of open source. Pull your heads out of your f_cking streaming channels and reflect for a change. You want to knee-jerk advocate for something that you think is the exact opposite of The Bad Thing, and that becomes the social media talking point... but what I see is people who don't bother to examine the issues in any detail. The result is lose, and lose and then lose again. Hey... lose everything, why not.
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@manlycoffee personally is from both. Internet is also kinda like drugs. Sure kids find there way. But there is also lot of sadness online doing also. Kids also meet offline other kids. If there vertification in place you can regulate big tech also.
@ringo32 @manlycoffee as a parent: you don't teach children that those other things are important by forbidding social media.
Banning social media for kids makes it unnecessarily attractive, and keeps me from training proper rules around social media. Both are a net negative.
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The Parliament of Estonia is orders of magnitude smarter than whoever is in the Parliament of Canada (including Mark Carney).
"Europe should regulate Big Tech instead of banning kids from social media, Estonia says"
Europe should regulate Big Tech instead of banning kids from social media, Estonia says
Banning kids from social media won’t work, as they “will find very quickly the ways to go around and to still use social media,” Estonian Education Minister Kristina Kallas said.
POLITICO (www.politico.eu)
@manlycoffee Full agreement on all points
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The Parliament of Estonia is orders of magnitude smarter than whoever is in the Parliament of Canada (including Mark Carney).
"Europe should regulate Big Tech instead of banning kids from social media, Estonia says"
Europe should regulate Big Tech instead of banning kids from social media, Estonia says
Banning kids from social media won’t work, as they “will find very quickly the ways to go around and to still use social media,” Estonian Education Minister Kristina Kallas said.
POLITICO (www.politico.eu)
agreed! unfortunately, they don't have the guts to stand up to trump and his cronies.
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Yeah, I proposed that before we ban social media by age, instead, let's have a blanket ban on auto-scrolling videos.
This would probably capture the "harm" that we want the under 16s to be shielded from, but older individuals are not immune from it, so they'd also benefit from the ban.
@manlycoffee @NicelyManifest
What about #peertube? What makes it not evil? -
The Parliament of Estonia is orders of magnitude smarter than whoever is in the Parliament of Canada (including Mark Carney).
"Europe should regulate Big Tech instead of banning kids from social media, Estonia says"
Europe should regulate Big Tech instead of banning kids from social media, Estonia says
Banning kids from social media won’t work, as they “will find very quickly the ways to go around and to still use social media,” Estonian Education Minister Kristina Kallas said.
POLITICO (www.politico.eu)
@manlycoffee they have free public transport. What do you expect?
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@manlycoffee They should do both.
Too many ways phones are toxic to child development.
@NicelyManifest @manlycoffee most parents are toxic to child development.
