Can we please not with all the ableist language I'm seeing around discussing AI (and anything, really)?
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@zappes you're left with an entire dictionary of words that better and more adequately describe complex or nuanced situations rather than reducing them to single-word slurs that don't actually describe the problem or behaviour anyway, it's just convenient for people to punch down.
@Curator Please let me prefix this with adisclaimer: I am autistic. I don't work well in situations with seemingly arbitrary rules as they really confuse me.
That being said: What you are opposing are all expressions that are commonly used for describing an entity (can be a person, can be software) that lacks cognitive abilities. And the reason is that you oppose the idea that one would, for whatever reason, want to express that sentiment.
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@Curator Please let me prefix this with adisclaimer: I am autistic. I don't work well in situations with seemingly arbitrary rules as they really confuse me.
That being said: What you are opposing are all expressions that are commonly used for describing an entity (can be a person, can be software) that lacks cognitive abilities. And the reason is that you oppose the idea that one would, for whatever reason, want to express that sentiment.
@zappes I'm also autistic. I have been discriminated against my whole life for not behaving in 'typical' ways, and have been called all of those words on that list I shared, as insults.
The bar is not 'learn the arbitrary rules', the bar is 'don't use words that have been used to hurt other people'. Being autistic is not, has never been, and never will be, an excuse to be a bigot.
It's fine if you didn't know that those words are slurs. But now you do.
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@zappes I'm also autistic. I have been discriminated against my whole life for not behaving in 'typical' ways, and have been called all of those words on that list I shared, as insults.
The bar is not 'learn the arbitrary rules', the bar is 'don't use words that have been used to hurt other people'. Being autistic is not, has never been, and never will be, an excuse to be a bigot.
It's fine if you didn't know that those words are slurs. But now you do.
@Curator I feel you, I experienced the exact same, and honestly... This topic does also feel like that. You are putting it very politely (according to current standards), but in essence you are telling me that I am all those things plus a few more from a more moral category.
I honestly appreciate not deriding people because they don't fit some arbitrary definition of "normal". But I really, really dislike it when the rules of language get changed whenever somebody uses a word "badly".
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@Curator I feel you, I experienced the exact same, and honestly... This topic does also feel like that. You are putting it very politely (according to current standards), but in essence you are telling me that I am all those things plus a few more from a more moral category.
I honestly appreciate not deriding people because they don't fit some arbitrary definition of "normal". But I really, really dislike it when the rules of language get changed whenever somebody uses a word "badly".
@zappes The rules aren't changing, it's just now we're standing up for having been bullied and derided for decades. Using those words to describe people has *always* been bad, but now more people are calling it out.
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@zappes The rules aren't changing, it's just now we're standing up for having been bullied and derided for decades. Using those words to describe people has *always* been bad, but now more people are calling it out.
@Curator Look at the word "idiot". In ancient greek, that's simply somebody not belonging to the "polites", i.e. the people who vote. That word was introduced as a polite, non agressive euphemism, but as soon as it was used as intended, it became a "slur" and using it was prohibited.
In my life alone, I have seen the euphemist evolution from "negro" to "black" to "of color", and I fully expect "PoC" to become taboo within a few years. The rules change all the time.
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@Curator Look at the word "idiot". In ancient greek, that's simply somebody not belonging to the "polites", i.e. the people who vote. That word was introduced as a polite, non agressive euphemism, but as soon as it was used as intended, it became a "slur" and using it was prohibited.
In my life alone, I have seen the euphemist evolution from "negro" to "black" to "of color", and I fully expect "PoC" to become taboo within a few years. The rules change all the time.
@zappes Even if they do - so? Okay, it's difficult. So? You can make a choice; you accept that someone who's less privileged than you and has suffered degredation that you might have not and choose not to use language that is hurtful, or you can disregard them and not (and thus, punch down, and continue the oppression).
Complaining about how hard it is gets you zero sympathy from me. I don't care.
But really, it's not difficult. It might be mildly inconvenient to choose a new word, that's all.
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Lunatic, insane, stupid, dumb, retarded, moron, idiot, imbecile, cretin, crazy, mad, nuts.
Any word that relates to low intelligence, smartness, or IQ.
Seriously, this is Nazi shit; you are literally doing the work of fascists in using language like this.
I appreciate that you might not have known, especially if English is not your first language and you weren't aware of the history of these words and their use as insults, but NOW YOU DO KNOW.
And now you can stop.
@Curator
What a completely retarded, idiotic sentiment.
Nearly every word you listed was at one time the proper, politically correct term to use. Now it is "developmentally disabled" or something like that, however, that too will lose favor one day.
It is quite telling that you would use dehumanizing language to describe people who use words that you do not like. That is something an actual Nazi would do. -
@saltywizard I try to think about the precise characteristics of the behaviour that I'm describing; ignorant is often the case, but sometimes it's behaviour that is better described in a sentence or two than trying to condense everything to one word. However: erratic, immoral, unethical, chaotic, dangerous, abusive - it depends what's being talked about and what the problem is.
@Curator @saltywizard I don't mean to turn this into a class or unpaid consultation but: are "dickhead", "shithead" and "asshole" OK?
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@Curator @saltywizard I don't mean to turn this into a class or unpaid consultation but: are "dickhead", "shithead" and "asshole" OK?
@cairobraga @saltywizard I've been trying to avoid things that use sex-specific bodyparts, to avoid e.g. implying that penises are bad (calling someone a dickhead) - I stick with things that are more general, like shithead and asshole
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@cairobraga @saltywizard I've been trying to avoid things that use sex-specific bodyparts, to avoid e.g. implying that penises are bad (calling someone a dickhead) - I stick with things that are more general, like shithead and asshole
@Curator @saltywizard I'm a penis owner (and penis enjoyer!) and I never stopped to think about that, isn't it wild? what you're saying does indeed make sense. thank you again!
also, linguistically speaking, the concept of "shit" as derogatory is so versatile and full of possibilities across most languages, one might even build a full list of words and terms based on it to replace ableist and otherwise bigoted language.
a note about "asshole": in Brazilian Portuguese everyday language we use "ass" (anus) in more than a thousand different terms, expressions and idioms, across all the spectrum of positive-neutral-negative feelings. "cuzão" (lit. "big ass", the most direct translation of "asshole" as an insult from English) when used towards a person is an offensive word related to a person's bad behaviour and/or personality; "cuzão" can also refer to someone's big butt in a positive way, and also mean that someone is very lucky and fortunate (there's a whole repertoire of expressions relating having a big butt to having good luck in PTBR).
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@Curator @saltywizard I'm a penis owner (and penis enjoyer!) and I never stopped to think about that, isn't it wild? what you're saying does indeed make sense. thank you again!
also, linguistically speaking, the concept of "shit" as derogatory is so versatile and full of possibilities across most languages, one might even build a full list of words and terms based on it to replace ableist and otherwise bigoted language.
a note about "asshole": in Brazilian Portuguese everyday language we use "ass" (anus) in more than a thousand different terms, expressions and idioms, across all the spectrum of positive-neutral-negative feelings. "cuzão" (lit. "big ass", the most direct translation of "asshole" as an insult from English) when used towards a person is an offensive word related to a person's bad behaviour and/or personality; "cuzão" can also refer to someone's big butt in a positive way, and also mean that someone is very lucky and fortunate (there's a whole repertoire of expressions relating having a big butt to having good luck in PTBR).
@cairobraga I approve of the many butt words in PTBR!
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@cairobraga @saltywizard I've been trying to avoid things that use sex-specific bodyparts, to avoid e.g. implying that penises are bad (calling someone a dickhead) - I stick with things that are more general, like shithead and asshole
assholes aren't fundamentally bad and are, in fact, quite beloved in some circles.
shit, by contrast, should be avoided. two girls-one cup, not withstanding.
this topic always reminds me of lenny bruce's take on 'fuck you.' he suggested, and i agree, that this is a blessing, not an insult.
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assholes aren't fundamentally bad and are, in fact, quite beloved in some circles.
shit, by contrast, should be avoided. two girls-one cup, not withstanding.
this topic always reminds me of lenny bruce's take on 'fuck you.' he suggested, and i agree, that this is a blessing, not an insult.
@saltywizard @Curator this reminds me of: there's this guy at work that's super attractive, stylish, polite, smart and nice and we were joking around during the shift, as a group, then I got him on a punchline, he laughed and said "fuck you" while smiling and I replied "I wish you would" while also smiling. he belly-laughed then came around to give me a hug and said "well played!".
unfortunately he's not sexually attracted to me. oh well.
all of this to say that I love playing with the ambiguity of "fuck you" and I agree with what you said Lenny Bruce said.
one more note on "assholes": I'm an enjoyer, 1000%! I still like the distinction of "have an asshole, don't be one", so I can get on board with it being used positively and/or negatively. also because, as per my previous post on this conversation, in the culture I was raised in the asshole contains multitudes.
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@Curator Look at the word "idiot". In ancient greek, that's simply somebody not belonging to the "polites", i.e. the people who vote. That word was introduced as a polite, non agressive euphemism, but as soon as it was used as intended, it became a "slur" and using it was prohibited.
In my life alone, I have seen the euphemist evolution from "negro" to "black" to "of color", and I fully expect "PoC" to become taboo within a few years. The rules change all the time.
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@saltywizard @Curator this reminds me of: there's this guy at work that's super attractive, stylish, polite, smart and nice and we were joking around during the shift, as a group, then I got him on a punchline, he laughed and said "fuck you" while smiling and I replied "I wish you would" while also smiling. he belly-laughed then came around to give me a hug and said "well played!".
unfortunately he's not sexually attracted to me. oh well.
all of this to say that I love playing with the ambiguity of "fuck you" and I agree with what you said Lenny Bruce said.
one more note on "assholes": I'm an enjoyer, 1000%! I still like the distinction of "have an asshole, don't be one", so I can get on board with it being used positively and/or negatively. also because, as per my previous post on this conversation, in the culture I was raised in the asshole contains multitudes.
I'm glad your colleague took your come-on in good humour at least, but sorry it didn't work out for you!
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@saltywizard @Curator this reminds me of: there's this guy at work that's super attractive, stylish, polite, smart and nice and we were joking around during the shift, as a group, then I got him on a punchline, he laughed and said "fuck you" while smiling and I replied "I wish you would" while also smiling. he belly-laughed then came around to give me a hug and said "well played!".
unfortunately he's not sexually attracted to me. oh well.
all of this to say that I love playing with the ambiguity of "fuck you" and I agree with what you said Lenny Bruce said.
one more note on "assholes": I'm an enjoyer, 1000%! I still like the distinction of "have an asshole, don't be one", so I can get on board with it being used positively and/or negatively. also because, as per my previous post on this conversation, in the culture I was raised in the asshole contains multitudes.
"the asshole contains multitudes."
— quote of the day -
"the asshole contains multitudes."
— quote of the day -
Lunatic, insane, stupid, dumb, retarded, moron, idiot, imbecile, cretin, crazy, mad, nuts.
Any word that relates to low intelligence, smartness, or IQ.
Seriously, this is Nazi shit; you are literally doing the work of fascists in using language like this.
I appreciate that you might not have known, especially if English is not your first language and you weren't aware of the history of these words and their use as insults, but NOW YOU DO KNOW.
And now you can stop.
disclaimer: I’m mildly autistic and english is not my native language, so please take that into consideration when replying.
I appreciate what you are trying to achieve here, but i would like to emphasize that in all communication context matters most. Blanket bans on words are not always the best approach, and in fact that’s something nazis and fascists really love doing.
For example: if someone says ”Bob is an idiot, he’s a nazi” you should not scold the person for using the word ”idiot” in their statement. Instead you should scold Bob. Bob chose to be a nazi.
However if someone says ”Dave is an idiot, he has down’s syndrome” then the person saying that does need all the scolding. Dave didn’t choose to have down’s syndrome.
Now if we replace the word ”idiot” with, for example ”asshole” in the above two statements, they become much more muddled in meaning, and end up benefiting Bob as he probably considers being an asshole a merit...
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disclaimer: I’m mildly autistic and english is not my native language, so please take that into consideration when replying.
I appreciate what you are trying to achieve here, but i would like to emphasize that in all communication context matters most. Blanket bans on words are not always the best approach, and in fact that’s something nazis and fascists really love doing.
For example: if someone says ”Bob is an idiot, he’s a nazi” you should not scold the person for using the word ”idiot” in their statement. Instead you should scold Bob. Bob chose to be a nazi.
However if someone says ”Dave is an idiot, he has down’s syndrome” then the person saying that does need all the scolding. Dave didn’t choose to have down’s syndrome.
Now if we replace the word ”idiot” with, for example ”asshole” in the above two statements, they become much more muddled in meaning, and end up benefiting Bob as he probably considers being an asshole a merit...
@unkx You're still choosing to use a word that means 'low intelligence'. Even if you're not using that word to describe a person, you're still associating low intelligence with bad behaviour. It's still ableist. And as I said above, not knowing is fine - until you DO know, and then you can make that choice.
If you're going to choose to still use ableist words knowing they're ableist, then you're a bigot.
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@unkx You're still choosing to use a word that means 'low intelligence'. Even if you're not using that word to describe a person, you're still associating low intelligence with bad behaviour. It's still ableist. And as I said above, not knowing is fine - until you DO know, and then you can make that choice.
If you're going to choose to still use ableist words knowing they're ableist, then you're a bigot.
@unkx Also, penty of Nazis have a high IQ or are smart or have high intelligence, however you want to describe it. IQ itself is a fascist tool, but that's a different argument. You're saying 'asshole' is more muddled in meaning, while choosing to use a non-specific and irrelevant word to describe someone. If Bob's a nazi, call him a nazi. His intellect is entirely irrelevant.
