When I said that your discord clone doesn’t need e2ee, I got a lot of comments along the lines of “ then how would I use it to organize the revolution!” The answer is: you don’t.
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@elexia my conversations with my mother-in-law about dogs, horses and babies are e2ee. because e2ee with one other party that a rando couldn't successfully impersonate long-term to you is a pretty solved problem.
many-to-many e2ee does not work. it simply, absolutely does not work, in either a technical or social sense, and accomplishes nothing while introducing significant problems.
@0xabad1dea @elexia I don't know if you're really understanding what E2EE is giving you.
With E2EE that actually does what it says, the logs of your group chats that the hosting provider keeps can't expose what you said to each other. If you become interesting enough to go try to join they can't just go ask your provider for their logs to see what you've already said before they got in. They actually have to go infiltrate your group.
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When I said that your discord clone doesn’t need e2ee, I got a lot of comments along the lines of “ then how would I use it to organize the revolution!” The answer is: you don’t. If you have more users than can comfortably share a Signal chat and hence want to use discord or something like it, you cannot POSSIBLY be vetting all of them to a high standard of trust. Your logs ARE leaking. End-to-end encryption between more people than can fit around a dinner table is pointless.
This article confirms what I already assumed, that “open source [information sense, not code sense] intelligence gathering on social media” includes, for the US government, asking for links to join groups that may *feel* private. My own discord has literally like a thousand idlers. It would be very *lucky* if none of them were logging for potentially nefarious purposes! And I remind the active users of this occasionally.
Exclusive: ICE Masks Up in More Ways Than One
Feds could be in your group chat
(www.kenklippenstein.com)
@0xabad1dea it's a very well-made point
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@elexia my conversations with my mother-in-law about dogs, horses and babies are e2ee. because e2ee with one other party that a rando couldn't successfully impersonate long-term to you is a pretty solved problem.
many-to-many e2ee does not work. it simply, absolutely does not work, in either a technical or social sense, and accomplishes nothing while introducing significant problems.
@0xabad1dea @elexia "many-to-many e2ee does not work." - it's a highly valid insight. It's a notoriously hard problem to solve perfectly, for all use cases and scenarios. There have been several valiant attempts in the #OpenSource world, but some sort of technical problem or other seems to keep "bursting out the seams". The devil keeps being in the details.
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@0xabad1dea yeah the thing is just, people use discord for (relatively) small groups too. some of those would honestly be fine as a signal group (had one if those before), but for some having something with a bit more functionality would be good and your threat model there probably isn't being targeted by a nation state adversary, but surveillance dragnets and not wanting everything to sit in plaintext on a server in case someone who shouldn't gains access.
@0xabad1dea of course you can argue about whether those different use cases are best handled by the same software
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@0xabad1dea Reminds me that I sometimes wonder who created this idea that we should encrypt everything, because as more and more time passes it more feels like a way to make people feel safer than they are, and weaken protocols.
If not entirely make things actually unsafe for people if it ends up with verifiable signatures which can't end up plausibly deniable (one reason why I have rotation on my dkim keys).@lanodan @0xabad1dea Because the idea that you can solidify insecure protocols by eliminating the steps you use to secure them externally turns out to be lunacy that doesn't even begin to work.
These keys you make for these purposes can be generated on the fly on your computer without any involvement by others. There's no reason to post things to the same handle in a validated manner if you can just invent new handles on the fly. No more trying "anonymous-douch-317" and finding that taken.
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@crazyeddie @0xabad1dea Generally, yeah, a little bit.
The Fediverse is still by-and-large a place where people REALLY into privacy, F/LOSS, and digital sovereignty come together; I remember a post from someone who tried to get into Lemmy as a Reddit replacement, and lamented the fact that every thread would consistently end up talking about Linux or politics. This is a platform where many don’t realize that their opinions and interests are highly rare IRL.
@moshimotsu @0xabad1dea So someone shows up and is annoyed that people are talking about unfamiliar topics that go outside of their little box and so they bitch about it and you side with THEM???
While I don't know...I rather appreciate the fact that my really rare hobbies are actually shared by others here and I get to talk about them without people telling me they're stupid and boring and why don't I talk about real wives or what some douchebag streamer said.
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When I said that your discord clone doesn’t need e2ee, I got a lot of comments along the lines of “ then how would I use it to organize the revolution!” The answer is: you don’t. If you have more users than can comfortably share a Signal chat and hence want to use discord or something like it, you cannot POSSIBLY be vetting all of them to a high standard of trust. Your logs ARE leaking. End-to-end encryption between more people than can fit around a dinner table is pointless.
This article confirms what I already assumed, that “open source [information sense, not code sense] intelligence gathering on social media” includes, for the US government, asking for links to join groups that may *feel* private. My own discord has literally like a thousand idlers. It would be very *lucky* if none of them were logging for potentially nefarious purposes! And I remind the active users of this occasionally.
Exclusive: ICE Masks Up in More Ways Than One
Feds could be in your group chat
(www.kenklippenstein.com)
@0xabad1dea I think that e2ee is good in a group chat (like what discord has where its limited to 10 people) or for direct messages.
For large group chats on the other hand: I have no idea how you would even get it to scale well.
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When I said that your discord clone doesn’t need e2ee, I got a lot of comments along the lines of “ then how would I use it to organize the revolution!” The answer is: you don’t. If you have more users than can comfortably share a Signal chat and hence want to use discord or something like it, you cannot POSSIBLY be vetting all of them to a high standard of trust. Your logs ARE leaking. End-to-end encryption between more people than can fit around a dinner table is pointless.
This article confirms what I already assumed, that “open source [information sense, not code sense] intelligence gathering on social media” includes, for the US government, asking for links to join groups that may *feel* private. My own discord has literally like a thousand idlers. It would be very *lucky* if none of them were logging for potentially nefarious purposes! And I remind the active users of this occasionally.
Exclusive: ICE Masks Up in More Ways Than One
Feds could be in your group chat
(www.kenklippenstein.com)
@0xabad1dea More important is that the service is anonymous, it shouldnt put your phone number in a database with your contacts.
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When I said that your discord clone doesn’t need e2ee, I got a lot of comments along the lines of “ then how would I use it to organize the revolution!” The answer is: you don’t. If you have more users than can comfortably share a Signal chat and hence want to use discord or something like it, you cannot POSSIBLY be vetting all of them to a high standard of trust. Your logs ARE leaking. End-to-end encryption between more people than can fit around a dinner table is pointless.
This article confirms what I already assumed, that “open source [information sense, not code sense] intelligence gathering on social media” includes, for the US government, asking for links to join groups that may *feel* private. My own discord has literally like a thousand idlers. It would be very *lucky* if none of them were logging for potentially nefarious purposes! And I remind the active users of this occasionally.
Exclusive: ICE Masks Up in More Ways Than One
Feds could be in your group chat
(www.kenklippenstein.com)
@0xabad1dea I guess the memes of the feds watching us isn’t too far off after all
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When I said that your discord clone doesn’t need e2ee, I got a lot of comments along the lines of “ then how would I use it to organize the revolution!” The answer is: you don’t. If you have more users than can comfortably share a Signal chat and hence want to use discord or something like it, you cannot POSSIBLY be vetting all of them to a high standard of trust. Your logs ARE leaking. End-to-end encryption between more people than can fit around a dinner table is pointless.
This article confirms what I already assumed, that “open source [information sense, not code sense] intelligence gathering on social media” includes, for the US government, asking for links to join groups that may *feel* private. My own discord has literally like a thousand idlers. It would be very *lucky* if none of them were logging for potentially nefarious purposes! And I remind the active users of this occasionally.
Exclusive: ICE Masks Up in More Ways Than One
Feds could be in your group chat
(www.kenklippenstein.com)
@0xabad1dea "“DHS has utilized its Congressionally directed undercover authorities to root out child molesters and predators for years,” the DHS spokesperson (no name included—fitting, I suppose, for a story about masking) told me in an email. “We will continue using every tool at our disposal to protect the American people as our agents and officers Make America Safe Again.”"
like the epstein files aren't right there in plain sight.
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