Vim's lead maintainer has fully lost his goddamn mind
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Vim's lead maintainer has fully lost his goddamn mind
@AndrewRadev @chainq feels familiar a bit
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@cuboci @AndrewRadev somehow I do not find it comforting that the last line against slop in software I use is review by another slop-machine
@ansuz @AndrewRadev No, of course it's not. But the characterization of the maintainer as having "fully lost his goddamn mind" because he used an LLM to point out problems in a PR is a bit unfair in my view.
I wish he hadn't done it and anthropomorphising the slop machine and ascribing feelings ("not happy") to it certainly doesn't inspire confidence.
But open source projects are inundated with AI slop these days (just ask @bagder), that's why I only half blame him for trying to get on top of it. At least, that's my interpretation after reading the PR conversation.
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@ansuz @AndrewRadev Switch to what though? VSCode?
@cuboci @ansuz @AndrewRadev i don't see any obvious code vomit on kakoune, but there isn't either a clear "no slop here", so it's kind of unclear how it will be in the future
as an option, not perfect, but there is kate, kde's code editor. if i weren't using kakoune already, kate would probably be what i'd be using instead, and it already is my backup in case i need
there is also vis, which seems mostly fine as well right now, but i haven't looked to deep into it
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@ansuz @AndrewRadev No, of course it's not. But the characterization of the maintainer as having "fully lost his goddamn mind" because he used an LLM to point out problems in a PR is a bit unfair in my view.
I wish he hadn't done it and anthropomorphising the slop machine and ascribing feelings ("not happy") to it certainly doesn't inspire confidence.
But open source projects are inundated with AI slop these days (just ask @bagder), that's why I only half blame him for trying to get on top of it. At least, that's my interpretation after reading the PR conversation.
@ansuz @AndrewRadev Oh, and having followed the aftermath of Bram Molenaar's sudden death a little I think the current maintainer certainly had his work cut out for him and so far did it surprisingly well. I almost expected Vim to die a slow death. Bram didn't seem to have made many preparations for his succession. So I tend to cut the current maintainer a certain kind of slack.
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@cuboci @ansuz @AndrewRadev i don't see any obvious code vomit on kakoune, but there isn't either a clear "no slop here", so it's kind of unclear how it will be in the future
as an option, not perfect, but there is kate, kde's code editor. if i weren't using kakoune already, kate would probably be what i'd be using instead, and it already is my backup in case i need
there is also vis, which seems mostly fine as well right now, but i haven't looked to deep into it
@SRAZKVT @ansuz @AndrewRadev Thanks for the pointer to Kakoune. Kate is out of the question though, not terminal-based.
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This is in a PR where Shougo, another long-time contributor, communicates entirely in walls of unparseable AI slop text: https://github.com/vim/vim/pull/19413
What a pathetic state after decades of active, thoughtful work. "I asked the chatbot how to write this code", "Well, I asked my chatbot, and "he" doesn't like it". What a fucking embarrassment.
@AndrewRadev these people are old, exhausted, and dont want to code anymore.
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@ansuz @AndrewRadev Oh, and having followed the aftermath of Bram Molenaar's sudden death a little I think the current maintainer certainly had his work cut out for him and so far did it surprisingly well. I almost expected Vim to die a slow death. Bram didn't seem to have made many preparations for his succession. So I tend to cut the current maintainer a certain kind of slack.
@cuboci @AndrewRadev I wish I had the patience left to be so charitable, but every project I've seen which has used LLMs in this fashion has eventually accepted PRs with glaring security holes.
Even if they're doing their best under difficult circumstances, it's still an unacceptable risk in my perspective, and I'm going to have to start seriously considering alternatives even if I don't switch immediately.
So, perhaps that slow death has already begun
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@simon_brooke @AndrewRadev absolutely not a valid excuse. There are translation services that do not make you sound like an artificial twat.
Google Translate is fine for just about most things. I would much rather read “obvious Google Translate” slop because you can work backwards from ooorly translated text to find the original meaning.
AI slop strips out the original intent and replaces it with… slop.
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@AndrewRadev these people are old, exhausted, and dont want to code anymore.
@f4grx @AndrewRadev I have a radical opinion that every over 45 should be provided an apartment, a latest game console with a subscription, and a lifetime food and beer supply, and banned from working. For exactly this reason.
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@f4grx @AndrewRadev I have a radical opinion that every over 45 should be provided an apartment, a latest game console with a subscription, and a lifetime food and beer supply, and banned from working. For exactly this reason.
@remove_huilo @f4grx @AndrewRadev trouble is all modern video games suck, they were much better back in our day.
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@cuboci @AndrewRadev I wish I had the patience left to be so charitable, but every project I've seen which has used LLMs in this fashion has eventually accepted PRs with glaring security holes.
Even if they're doing their best under difficult circumstances, it's still an unacceptable risk in my perspective, and I'm going to have to start seriously considering alternatives even if I don't switch immediately.
So, perhaps that slow death has already begun@ansuz @AndrewRadev What can I say, I'm an optimist at heart
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@steko @AndrewRadev My impression was that they use "AI assisted" code analysers that are rather a different technology from the slop parrots being used here in vim. Daniel has a firm (and negative) opinion about slop for multiple reasons, IIRC.
@phl @steko @AndrewRadev Came here to say that "AI slop in curl" is him the maintainer complaining about people using LLM to find bugs
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Vim's lead maintainer has fully lost his goddamn mind
@AndrewRadev I assume helix would serve as a good vim replacement?
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@phl @steko @AndrewRadev Came here to say that "AI slop in curl" is him the maintainer complaining about people using LLM to find bugs
@leonardof @phl @AndrewRadev "Copilot started reviewing on behalf of bagder" is what had me worried https://github.com/curl/curl/pull/20793
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@AndrewRadev which means @neovim is tainted as well because it regularly pulls changes from Vim. I'm not sure if someone in the Neovim team uses LLMs as well, they probably do.
@ayushnix @AndrewRadev Some do. This repo was created by a Neovim maintainer: https://github.com/famiu/llm_conversation. Another maintainer has an OpenCode agent config in their dotfiles: https://github.com/dundargoc/justin/blob/master/.config/opencode/AGENTS.md. Another is also the maintainer of a Neovim Copilot plugin: https://github.com/folke/sidekick.nvim. I'm sure there are many more, I only looked at a few.
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@f4grx @AndrewRadev I have a radical opinion that every over 45 should be provided an apartment, a latest game console with a subscription, and a lifetime food and beer supply, and banned from working. For exactly this reason.
@remove_huilo @f4grx @AndrewRadev yeah I really get the feeling that this movement is shaped by people who hate programming. They're probably not the ones who should decide what happens to young computer people.
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@ayushnix @AndrewRadev Some do. This repo was created by a Neovim maintainer: https://github.com/famiu/llm_conversation. Another maintainer has an OpenCode agent config in their dotfiles: https://github.com/dundargoc/justin/blob/master/.config/opencode/AGENTS.md. Another is also the maintainer of a Neovim Copilot plugin: https://github.com/folke/sidekick.nvim. I'm sure there are many more, I only looked at a few.
- Official "GenAI-related features" issue: https://github.com/neovim/neovim/issues/32084
- "AI-assisted" label for (known) AI-assisted PRs: https://github.com/neovim/neovim/issues?q=label%3A%22AI%20assisted%20%F0%9F%A4%96%22
- Lead developer casually posting image slop, proudly stating he was too lazy to edit an obvious error: https://hachyderm.io/@AndrewRadev/114799760372757991 -
- Official "GenAI-related features" issue: https://github.com/neovim/neovim/issues/32084
- "AI-assisted" label for (known) AI-assisted PRs: https://github.com/neovim/neovim/issues?q=label%3A%22AI%20assisted%20%F0%9F%A4%96%22
- Lead developer casually posting image slop, proudly stating he was too lazy to edit an obvious error: https://hachyderm.io/@AndrewRadev/114799760372757991@AndrewRadev @ayushnix yikes! I guess it's time I think about using another editor
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@root @cuboci @AndrewRadev sorry, didn't realize we were doing a "wrong answers only" thread
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@f4grx @AndrewRadev I have a radical opinion that every over 45 should be provided an apartment, a latest game console with a subscription, and a lifetime food and beer supply, and banned from working. For exactly this reason.
@remove_huilo @f4grx @AndrewRadev I'd take that deal on the condition you gave me all the abandoned legacy FORTRAN code that still has technical value and leave me to refactor it into something that can go another 40 years eithout maintenance. No AI, just a decent IDE, and time. I find that work intensely satisfying and relaxing; by all appearances it has no economic value.
