Is the PHP ecosystem just one big xkcd "Dependency" meme?
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Is the PHP ecosystem just one big xkcd "Dependency" meme?
We rely on legends like @ondrej the "one guy in Nebraska" of PHP. Why no official @php Foundation repo?
It’s the "Glue Problem." Managing PHP's links to shifting system libs across every distro is a massive DevOps task.
The @thephpf stays focused on Core C development; Docker is their "official" path now.
Is relying on community experts a risk or just peak efficiency?
@webinoly I remember @ramsey was trying to start a php-community-foundation, there is an idea, I had a number of conversations about it a your ago, with him and others. This would solve the point you raise. But we never got any further than some people talking, I never succeeded in getting a group together.
I realized after a few conversations that these kinds of things are not started by an individual. -
@derickr Appreciate that correction! It actually makes the "one guy in Nebraska" risk feel even more real.
@derickr @webinoly I don't want to decline his work, many of our customers use his repo.
But from my understanding: All bigger distros have one PHP version. So ee don't depend on one person. E.g. one of our customers doesn't add 3rd party repos. So we follow debian in that case.
So it is up to customers to decide whether to use the distro upstream PHP or Ondrej repo, isn't it?
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@webinoly I remember @ramsey was trying to start a php-community-foundation, there is an idea, I had a number of conversations about it a your ago, with him and others. This would solve the point you raise. But we never got any further than some people talking, I never succeeded in getting a group together.
I realized after a few conversations that these kinds of things are not started by an individual.@jaapio @ramsey It really seems to come down to that human element, getting collective momentum is often harder than the technical implementation itself.
The struggle for a sustainable, community-driven "last mile" is clearly a shared pain point. I’d be glad to help keep that idea visible so it can gather traction.
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@derickr @webinoly I don't want to decline his work, many of our customers use his repo.
But from my understanding: All bigger distros have one PHP version. So ee don't depend on one person. E.g. one of our customers doesn't add 3rd party repos. So we follow debian in that case.
So it is up to customers to decide whether to use the distro upstream PHP or Ondrej repo, isn't it?
@danielsiepmann Sometimes you need a specific PHP version for compatibility or new features, and you can’t just be limited by whatever your distro ships. That’s exactly why many teams end up relying on external repos or building their own.
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@jaapio @ramsey It really seems to come down to that human element, getting collective momentum is often harder than the technical implementation itself.
The struggle for a sustainable, community-driven "last mile" is clearly a shared pain point. I’d be glad to help keep that idea visible so it can gather traction.
@webinoly as @ramsey explains very well here https://github.com/phpcommunity/policies/blob/main/foundation/vision.md the problem is partly in the history of php. There have been multiple situations during that history the missing organization around the eco-system has been a challenge.
But it might also be part of the reason php still exists, and is still relevant. -
@webinoly as @ramsey explains very well here https://github.com/phpcommunity/policies/blob/main/foundation/vision.md the problem is partly in the history of php. There have been multiple situations during that history the missing organization around the eco-system has been a challenge.
But it might also be part of the reason php still exists, and is still relevant.@jaapio @webinoly Unfortunately, the corporate funding required to support a single foundation—much less two—doesn’t exist. The PHP Foundation is facing this challenge, and I don’t want to create obstacles that could get in the way of their ability to secure funding. The community needs to encourage companies to donate to the PHPF. Once it is healthy, we can consider expanding its mission to support community efforts (or add a community foundation that that coexist in a healthy ecosystem).
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@jaapio @webinoly Unfortunately, the corporate funding required to support a single foundation—much less two—doesn’t exist. The PHP Foundation is facing this challenge, and I don’t want to create obstacles that could get in the way of their ability to secure funding. The community needs to encourage companies to donate to the PHPF. Once it is healthy, we can consider expanding its mission to support community efforts (or add a community foundation that that coexist in a healthy ecosystem).
@ramsey @jaapio That paradox is fascinating: PHP’s lack of formal structure may well be its greatest evolutionary strength. The blueprint is solid, but the funding catch-22 is a sobering reminder of the gap between global reliance and infrastructure reinvestment.
I’m committed to keeping this vision visible to help gather the momentum it deserves as the PHP Foundation continues to scale.
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@ramsey @jaapio That paradox is fascinating: PHP’s lack of formal structure may well be its greatest evolutionary strength. The blueprint is solid, but the funding catch-22 is a sobering reminder of the gap between global reliance and infrastructure reinvestment.
I’m committed to keeping this vision visible to help gather the momentum it deserves as the PHP Foundation continues to scale.
@webinoly @jaapio If PHP (the language) had better support for ML operations (like Python), it would be more valuable to a company who might be willing to invest in it. I’ve been tinkering with adding native arbitrary integer support, which I think is the first step to getting there. After that, PHP needs something like numpy that others can build on for ML functionality.
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@webinoly @jaapio If PHP (the language) had better support for ML operations (like Python), it would be more valuable to a company who might be willing to invest in it. I’ve been tinkering with adding native arbitrary integer support, which I think is the first step to getting there. After that, PHP needs something like numpy that others can build on for ML functionality.
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@ramsey @jaapio Technical primitives are only the start. Shifting PHP’s niche requires strategic orchestration, not just features. Its low barrier drove adoption but fueled a perception crisis. Like Rust, we need institutional lobbying and a radical brand reset. NumPy‑style tools matter, but without moving beyond the “2005 template” stigma, they won’t change the trajectory. Features are the tools; leadership is the engine.
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@ramsey @jaapio Technical primitives are only the start. Shifting PHP’s niche requires strategic orchestration, not just features. Its low barrier drove adoption but fueled a perception crisis. Like Rust, we need institutional lobbying and a radical brand reset. NumPy‑style tools matter, but without moving beyond the “2005 template” stigma, they won’t change the trajectory. Features are the tools; leadership is the engine.
@ramsey @jaapio Just spotted this topic popping up on Reddit today. It’s a bit of a reality check to see how these points are received over there. Some of the comments are pretty blunt about the branding gap we discussed. Worth a look: https://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/1ru2fz8/i_cant_stop_thinking_about_this_thread_regarding/
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@ramsey @jaapio Just spotted this topic popping up on Reddit today. It’s a bit of a reality check to see how these points are received over there. Some of the comments are pretty blunt about the branding gap we discussed. Worth a look: https://www.reddit.com/r/PHP/comments/1ru2fz8/i_cant_stop_thinking_about_this_thread_regarding/
@webinoly @jaapio Interesting to see that.
“I’ve always taken PHP for granted as this massive, stable engine, but I had no idea that a project of this scale still faces such significant funding and leadership hurdles.”
I posted this reply on the internals mailing list on Sunday: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/130354
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@webinoly @jaapio Interesting to see that.
“I’ve always taken PHP for granted as this massive, stable engine, but I had no idea that a project of this scale still faces such significant funding and leadership hurdles.”
I posted this reply on the internals mailing list on Sunday: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/130354
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Is the PHP ecosystem just one big xkcd "Dependency" meme?
We rely on legends like @ondrej the "one guy in Nebraska" of PHP. Why no official @php Foundation repo?
It’s the "Glue Problem." Managing PHP's links to shifting system libs across every distro is a massive DevOps task.
The @thephpf stays focused on Core C development; Docker is their "official" path now.
Is relying on community experts a risk or just peak efficiency?
@webinoly @ondrej @php @thephpf PHP has survived despite it's lack of commercial support or solid funding structure... but it suffers from it too.
I've used #PHP professionally for 2 decades & have never once been tempted to donate as a value-add. I've donated for the good feels - but that doesn't get you corporate level funding.
Heck... a go-fund-me for competing new features? Pay for a license for older versions? Official swag?
We need leadership with sales/marketing acumen.
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@webinoly @ondrej @php @thephpf PHP has survived despite it's lack of commercial support or solid funding structure... but it suffers from it too.
I've used #PHP professionally for 2 decades & have never once been tempted to donate as a value-add. I've donated for the good feels - but that doesn't get you corporate level funding.
Heck... a go-fund-me for competing new features? Pay for a license for older versions? Official swag?
We need leadership with sales/marketing acumen.
@webinoly @ondrej @php @thephpf There's a bit of an "eew that's gross" reaction to talk of monetization. But funding = survival, security & growth.
An official certification? A few non-free official extensions? Courses? Static analysis tools? I dunno man.... something.
Before ThePHPF I struggled to even find a way to donate. One year I made individual GitHub sponsorships to a few maintainers directly.
It's bonkers that @ondrej does all that as a volunteer.
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@webinoly @ondrej @php @thephpf There's a bit of an "eew that's gross" reaction to talk of monetization. But funding = survival, security & growth.
An official certification? A few non-free official extensions? Courses? Static analysis tools? I dunno man.... something.
Before ThePHPF I struggled to even find a way to donate. One year I made individual GitHub sponsorships to a few maintainers directly.
It's bonkers that @ondrej does all that as a volunteer.
@syntaxseed @ondrej @php @thephpf It’s always complex to critique a project of PHP’s magnitude, but the recent scrutiny is well-deserved. Between the debates over the new Foundation leadership and the persistent brand stigma, the project is at a crossroads.
It’s no longer just about the code; it’s about strategic vision and infrastructure resilience. We need leadership that prioritizes the ecosystem's stability as much as its marketing. Valid concerns all around.
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@webinoly @jaapio Interesting to see that.
“I’ve always taken PHP for granted as this massive, stable engine, but I had no idea that a project of this scale still faces such significant funding and leadership hurdles.”
I posted this reply on the internals mailing list on Sunday: https://news-web.php.net/php.internals/130354
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@webinoly @ondrej @php @thephpf There's a bit of an "eew that's gross" reaction to talk of monetization. But funding = survival, security & growth.
An official certification? A few non-free official extensions? Courses? Static analysis tools? I dunno man.... something.
Before ThePHPF I struggled to even find a way to donate. One year I made individual GitHub sponsorships to a few maintainers directly.
It's bonkers that @ondrej does all that as a volunteer.
@syntaxseed @webinoly @ondrej @php @thephpf I’m surprised php hasn’t adopted some of the strategies the Laravel ecosystem (which is of course based on php) has proven are popular. Mainly, offering *optional* paid solutions for common dev problems. Paired with active branding that encourages a certain professional pride (e.g. “artisans”) in those using the tools. Laravel the company has kinda jumped the shark now, but imho that’s due to the weakness of the BFD model, which php thankfully doesn’t have.
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