I made the claim that the FBI declared the Black Panthers dangerous, not because they were Black nationalists or supremacists.
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Unfortunately, no. On this point, Fred Hampton and many of his followers (some of whom are close friends!), and I disagree. It's OK to disagree!
My position is that it is possible to separate capitalism from racism, and possible to separate trade and commerce from capitalism. My position is that owning property and renting it to other people to live in, is not only not evil, but can be good. My position is that owning entire companies, or shares in companies, is not necessarily evil. Yes I'm an employee. But I also own shares in many companies, and have owned entire other companies. I own land. I've been CEO of companies with hundreds of employees, vendors, and contractors. I help startup companies. My position is that rich people that are evil and sociopathic, are more dangerous to poor people than rich people that are kind and pro-social. My position is that history has shown that socialism with evil leadership, is just as harmful as capitalism with evil leadership, so the most important dimension is "evil." My position is that allowing capitalism to influence politics, has created the horrific feedback loop where instead of politicians causing capital to be applied for the good of society, capital influences politicians at the expense of society.
Fred Hampton would call me a "Black capitalist," which he viewed as a self-defeating half measure. He would argue that it is not coincidental that racism and capitalism were invented at basically the same time. He would say that separating ownership of a company from labor in a company, inevitably leads to sociopathic outcomes, the only degree is "how much, how soon." He would say that's irrelevant, because the real answer will always be "a little more than last year." He would say that we are aligned on only the most obvious of things: (fascism bad! Vaccines good!) but that I'm not ready for the big change needed to move society forwards: letting go of capitalism for socialism. He would argue that whether a wealthy person is kind or evil, is irrelevant to the harms done by the very existence of wealthy people in the first place. A kind elephant that makes a mistake, or a malevolent elephant that sits on you on purpose, squashes you just the same.
@mekkaokereke @Reddog I cried for a week when Fred Hampton was assassinated. I will never forget the photos of the bullet riddled room where he died. MLK, Jr. was assassinated the year before. The years 1968-69 were very memorable and impressionable on my young life.
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Unfortunately, no. On this point, Fred Hampton and many of his followers (some of whom are close friends!), and I disagree. It's OK to disagree!
My position is that it is possible to separate capitalism from racism, and possible to separate trade and commerce from capitalism. My position is that owning property and renting it to other people to live in, is not only not evil, but can be good. My position is that owning entire companies, or shares in companies, is not necessarily evil. Yes I'm an employee. But I also own shares in many companies, and have owned entire other companies. I own land. I've been CEO of companies with hundreds of employees, vendors, and contractors. I help startup companies. My position is that rich people that are evil and sociopathic, are more dangerous to poor people than rich people that are kind and pro-social. My position is that history has shown that socialism with evil leadership, is just as harmful as capitalism with evil leadership, so the most important dimension is "evil." My position is that allowing capitalism to influence politics, has created the horrific feedback loop where instead of politicians causing capital to be applied for the good of society, capital influences politicians at the expense of society.
Fred Hampton would call me a "Black capitalist," which he viewed as a self-defeating half measure. He would argue that it is not coincidental that racism and capitalism were invented at basically the same time. He would say that separating ownership of a company from labor in a company, inevitably leads to sociopathic outcomes, the only degree is "how much, how soon." He would say that's irrelevant, because the real answer will always be "a little more than last year." He would say that we are aligned on only the most obvious of things: (fascism bad! Vaccines good!) but that I'm not ready for the big change needed to move society forwards: letting go of capitalism for socialism. He would argue that whether a wealthy person is kind or evil, is irrelevant to the harms done by the very existence of wealthy people in the first place. A kind elephant that makes a mistake, or a malevolent elephant that sits on you on purpose, squashes you just the same.
I agree with Hampton and suggest we need law that limits the size of wealth and outlaws monopolies, prioriizes small businesses that provide goods, and funds public arts and science so everyone can benefit and enjoy. Eliminating the elephant, benign or not, makes it easier to gain a fair share for all the other sizes of existance. I have worked in a corporation, run my own small business, and I farm. The sastem is geared toward growth. Get big or get out they tell you. That has to change. There is no way to downsize that philosophy. Its unnatural. Natural systems are robust because they 'waste' resources by having multiple redundant feedback loops and participants.
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Here's the ironic part:
I am Black. But by any reasonable definition of the term, I am wealthy. No matter how much you might hear me complain about silly things like how expensive EVs in the US are, or the cost of health insurance, or the price of gas, or the price of eggs, or Bay Area real estate prices, or college student loan debt, or prescription drug prices, or my stonks.
️I am Black and wealthy.
So the important question: if you are poor and white, do Fred Hampton and the Black Panthers see themselves as more aligned with your struggle, or mine?
When Fred Hampton said he wanted a revolution, was he talking about overthrowing you, or overthrowing me?
When he talked about "Getting in the streets," was he talking about hurting me? Or helping you, by giving your kids free vaccines and free school lunch?
Are his "dangerous ideas" more dangerous for you? Or for me?
Is he my "messiah" or yours?
@mekkaokereke I absolutely agree with you, but why are most rich people so afraid of losing their money?
Because you only get rich if you keep the money tight?
How can we convince rich people that, congrats, they're rich, now share some?
Why is anybody scared by a Messiah distributing goods?
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@mekkaokereke Fred Hampton's ability to connect class struggle across races is what made him so dangerous, why they killed him.
As an undergrad, my student group hosted a Fred Hampton Day (each year, I think).
We mostly got puzzled looks at our posters that said "I am Fred Hampton." Except for the people that appeared there as part of CIA programs (this was in DC). They were not puzzled, I don't think.
@D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke my kids last year got a new understanding of the BPP when we visited Alcatraz: they practiced solidarity standing with the Native American occupation of the island.
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@D_J_Nathanson @mekkaokereke my kids last year got a new understanding of the BPP when we visited Alcatraz: they practiced solidarity standing with the Native American occupation of the island.
@btanderson @mekkaokereke That’s awesome.
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Here's the ironic part:
I am Black. But by any reasonable definition of the term, I am wealthy. No matter how much you might hear me complain about silly things like how expensive EVs in the US are, or the cost of health insurance, or the price of gas, or the price of eggs, or Bay Area real estate prices, or college student loan debt, or prescription drug prices, or my stonks.
️I am Black and wealthy.
So the important question: if you are poor and white, do Fred Hampton and the Black Panthers see themselves as more aligned with your struggle, or mine?
When Fred Hampton said he wanted a revolution, was he talking about overthrowing you, or overthrowing me?
When he talked about "Getting in the streets," was he talking about hurting me? Or helping you, by giving your kids free vaccines and free school lunch?
Are his "dangerous ideas" more dangerous for you? Or for me?
Is he my "messiah" or yours?
@mekkaokereke I remember chatting once w/an acquaintance called Sylvester - lovely bloke: Black, Caribbean, parents wealthy enough to pay for him to do medicine at Cambridge University. He'd volunteered for Cambridge Black Caucus, so they sent him to some inner-city school to encourage Black kids to apply to Cambridge. He went; but he said to me - sat there in his hand-stitched made-to-measure shoes - that he felt his audience would have had much more in common with a working-class white guy.
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I agree with Hampton and suggest we need law that limits the size of wealth and outlaws monopolies, prioriizes small businesses that provide goods, and funds public arts and science so everyone can benefit and enjoy. Eliminating the elephant, benign or not, makes it easier to gain a fair share for all the other sizes of existance. I have worked in a corporation, run my own small business, and I farm. The sastem is geared toward growth. Get big or get out they tell you. That has to change. There is no way to downsize that philosophy. Its unnatural. Natural systems are robust because they 'waste' resources by having multiple redundant feedback loops and participants.
@oldoldcojote great summary!!
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Unfortunately, no. On this point, Fred Hampton and many of his followers (some of whom are close friends!), and I disagree. It's OK to disagree!
My position is that it is possible to separate capitalism from racism, and possible to separate trade and commerce from capitalism. My position is that owning property and renting it to other people to live in, is not only not evil, but can be good. My position is that owning entire companies, or shares in companies, is not necessarily evil. Yes I'm an employee. But I also own shares in many companies, and have owned entire other companies. I own land. I've been CEO of companies with hundreds of employees, vendors, and contractors. I help startup companies. My position is that rich people that are evil and sociopathic, are more dangerous to poor people than rich people that are kind and pro-social. My position is that history has shown that socialism with evil leadership, is just as harmful as capitalism with evil leadership, so the most important dimension is "evil." My position is that allowing capitalism to influence politics, has created the horrific feedback loop where instead of politicians causing capital to be applied for the good of society, capital influences politicians at the expense of society.
Fred Hampton would call me a "Black capitalist," which he viewed as a self-defeating half measure. He would argue that it is not coincidental that racism and capitalism were invented at basically the same time. He would say that separating ownership of a company from labor in a company, inevitably leads to sociopathic outcomes, the only degree is "how much, how soon." He would say that's irrelevant, because the real answer will always be "a little more than last year." He would say that we are aligned on only the most obvious of things: (fascism bad! Vaccines good!) but that I'm not ready for the big change needed to move society forwards: letting go of capitalism for socialism. He would argue that whether a wealthy person is kind or evil, is irrelevant to the harms done by the very existence of wealthy people in the first place. A kind elephant that makes a mistake, or a malevolent elephant that sits on you on purpose, squashes you just the same.
I suggest that if you think capitalism is good, then you don't understand what is meant by it by the people who invented the word and the people who analyze its function today calling it evil.
The following paper by economists from anarchist tradition (different from Hampton's Marxist one) suggest that Capitalism is, properly understood, an extortion racket.
Bichler & Nitzan, 'The Business of Strategic Sabotage' – Capital As Power
The Business of Strategic Sabotage SHIMSHON BICHLER and JONATHAN NITZAN January 2023 Abstract In a recent article, Nicolas D. Villarreal claims that our empirical analysis of the relation between business power and industrial sabotage in the United States is unpersuasive, if not deliberately misleading. Specifically, he argues that we cherry-pick specific data definitions and smoothing […]
Capital As Power (bnarchives.net)
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I suggest that if you think capitalism is good, then you don't understand what is meant by it by the people who invented the word and the people who analyze its function today calling it evil.
The following paper by economists from anarchist tradition (different from Hampton's Marxist one) suggest that Capitalism is, properly understood, an extortion racket.
Bichler & Nitzan, 'The Business of Strategic Sabotage' – Capital As Power
The Business of Strategic Sabotage SHIMSHON BICHLER and JONATHAN NITZAN January 2023 Abstract In a recent article, Nicolas D. Villarreal claims that our empirical analysis of the relation between business power and industrial sabotage in the United States is unpersuasive, if not deliberately misleading. Specifically, he argues that we cherry-pick specific data definitions and smoothing […]
Capital As Power (bnarchives.net)
Extortion rackets (threatening to hurt people if they don't pay you) are evil. See what you think of their analysis because it isn't some dogma from the 1800's it's a modern economic argument about what is necessary for production and industry, vs what pure ownership brings to the table of production.
I find it convincing myself. I suspect that you through your business arrangements have been an "owner operator" which is a different thing.
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I made the claim that the FBI declared the Black Panthers dangerous, not because they were Black nationalists or supremacists. They weren't.
They were dangerous because they preached racial *solidarity*.
But don't take my word for it!
Listen to Fred Hampton's own words.
Turn on closed captions.
Uh, well as Fred Hampton says:There are white people, in the mother country, that are for the same types of things that we are for
stimulating revolution in the mother country.We would work with anybody, form coalitions with anybody that has revolution on their mind.
We're not a racist organization because we understand that racism is an excuse used for capitalism, and we know racism is just a by-product of capitalism.
Not sure how that's specifically racial solidarity. It sounds like just solidarity to me, which is everyone, defined neither by race, nor gender.
I'll be honest he's pretty fire. And anyone declaring Panthers just as bad as the Nazis is a Nazi.Socialism is the people! If you're afraid of Socialism, you're afraid of yourself.
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Unfortunately, no. On this point, Fred Hampton and many of his followers (some of whom are close friends!), and I disagree. It's OK to disagree!
My position is that it is possible to separate capitalism from racism, and possible to separate trade and commerce from capitalism. My position is that owning property and renting it to other people to live in, is not only not evil, but can be good. My position is that owning entire companies, or shares in companies, is not necessarily evil. Yes I'm an employee. But I also own shares in many companies, and have owned entire other companies. I own land. I've been CEO of companies with hundreds of employees, vendors, and contractors. I help startup companies. My position is that rich people that are evil and sociopathic, are more dangerous to poor people than rich people that are kind and pro-social. My position is that history has shown that socialism with evil leadership, is just as harmful as capitalism with evil leadership, so the most important dimension is "evil." My position is that allowing capitalism to influence politics, has created the horrific feedback loop where instead of politicians causing capital to be applied for the good of society, capital influences politicians at the expense of society.
Fred Hampton would call me a "Black capitalist," which he viewed as a self-defeating half measure. He would argue that it is not coincidental that racism and capitalism were invented at basically the same time. He would say that separating ownership of a company from labor in a company, inevitably leads to sociopathic outcomes, the only degree is "how much, how soon." He would say that's irrelevant, because the real answer will always be "a little more than last year." He would say that we are aligned on only the most obvious of things: (fascism bad! Vaccines good!) but that I'm not ready for the big change needed to move society forwards: letting go of capitalism for socialism. He would argue that whether a wealthy person is kind or evil, is irrelevant to the harms done by the very existence of wealthy people in the first place. A kind elephant that makes a mistake, or a malevolent elephant that sits on you on purpose, squashes you just the same.
Ultimately, the only thing that matters is if the rank and file of society have ultimate authority over their lives and ring fence any economic or political decision-making power of the few.
Economic consolidation in the form of wealth or business activity is economic decision-making power as well as quite often being political decision-making power.
Everyone affected by a decision should have a say in that decision.
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You don't have to agree with 100% of what Fred Hampton or the Black Panthers said or did.
And you shouldn't change any of your core values because of anything he says. Not one.
My question is: how many of his core beliefs, and the beliefs of the Black Panthers, align with your core beliefs?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tF7_2VckKNQ&t=504s
This is the most dangerous thought that the Panthers vocalized:
"We don't fight fire with fire. We fight fire with water. We don't fight racism with more racism. We fight racism with solidarity."
"No matter what color you are, there's only two classes.... But this class has divided itself..."
@mekkaokereke not much to disagree with tbh
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Unfortunately, no. On this point, Fred Hampton and many of his followers (some of whom are close friends!), and I disagree. It's OK to disagree!
My position is that it is possible to separate capitalism from racism, and possible to separate trade and commerce from capitalism. My position is that owning property and renting it to other people to live in, is not only not evil, but can be good. My position is that owning entire companies, or shares in companies, is not necessarily evil. Yes I'm an employee. But I also own shares in many companies, and have owned entire other companies. I own land. I've been CEO of companies with hundreds of employees, vendors, and contractors. I help startup companies. My position is that rich people that are evil and sociopathic, are more dangerous to poor people than rich people that are kind and pro-social. My position is that history has shown that socialism with evil leadership, is just as harmful as capitalism with evil leadership, so the most important dimension is "evil." My position is that allowing capitalism to influence politics, has created the horrific feedback loop where instead of politicians causing capital to be applied for the good of society, capital influences politicians at the expense of society.
Fred Hampton would call me a "Black capitalist," which he viewed as a self-defeating half measure. He would argue that it is not coincidental that racism and capitalism were invented at basically the same time. He would say that separating ownership of a company from labor in a company, inevitably leads to sociopathic outcomes, the only degree is "how much, how soon." He would say that's irrelevant, because the real answer will always be "a little more than last year." He would say that we are aligned on only the most obvious of things: (fascism bad! Vaccines good!) but that I'm not ready for the big change needed to move society forwards: letting go of capitalism for socialism. He would argue that whether a wealthy person is kind or evil, is irrelevant to the harms done by the very existence of wealthy people in the first place. A kind elephant that makes a mistake, or a malevolent elephant that sits on you on purpose, squashes you just the same.
@mekkaokereke @Reddog I would push back hard on the idea that racism and capitalism were invented concurrently. If that were true then we would have expected to see the Industrial Revolution somewhere like Haiti instead of Britain. I think we dramatically overestimate when capitalism became the Big Thing instead of an idea of some economic theory.
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@mekkaokereke @Reddog I would push back hard on the idea that racism and capitalism were invented concurrently. If that were true then we would have expected to see the Industrial Revolution somewhere like Haiti instead of Britain. I think we dramatically overestimate when capitalism became the Big Thing instead of an idea of some economic theory.
You're welcome to push back (on other people
). My only suggestion before you do that, is that you read a few books on racial capitalism first. Read books by Cedric Robinson, Angela Davis, Eric Williams etc.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qhh3CMkngkY
And I recommend that you explore where the capital that funded the industrial revolution in England came from. Hint: transatlantic slavery, which depended on racism. I'd recommend Capitalism and Slavery for the Williams Thesis.
And I recommend that you read up on Henry the Navigator of Portugal, and Gomes Zurara. Yes, slavery existed before them. Yes, prejudice existed before them. But the modern concept of racism, just like the modern concept of fascism, was invented by very specific people, on very specific days, for a very specific purpose: to justify slavery.
This isn't an invitation to debate (me). I'm just providing information that the college professors that you will debate on whether capitalism and racism were invented concurrently will have, so that you can have a fair fight.
Good luck!
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@sri @mekkaokereke Came here to say the exact same thing! Thank you @mekkaokereke!
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I made the claim that the FBI declared the Black Panthers dangerous, not because they were Black nationalists or supremacists. They weren't.
They were dangerous because they preached racial *solidarity*.
But don't take my word for it!
Listen to Fred Hampton's own words.
Turn on closed captions.
@mekkaokereke Even this white girl figured that out from... oh, I don't even remember what.
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You're welcome to push back (on other people
). My only suggestion before you do that, is that you read a few books on racial capitalism first. Read books by Cedric Robinson, Angela Davis, Eric Williams etc.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qhh3CMkngkY
And I recommend that you explore where the capital that funded the industrial revolution in England came from. Hint: transatlantic slavery, which depended on racism. I'd recommend Capitalism and Slavery for the Williams Thesis.
And I recommend that you read up on Henry the Navigator of Portugal, and Gomes Zurara. Yes, slavery existed before them. Yes, prejudice existed before them. But the modern concept of racism, just like the modern concept of fascism, was invented by very specific people, on very specific days, for a very specific purpose: to justify slavery.
This isn't an invitation to debate (me). I'm just providing information that the college professors that you will debate on whether capitalism and racism were invented concurrently will have, so that you can have a fair fight.
Good luck!
@mekkaokereke @Reddog I've specifically made the point about US wealth being built on the back of slavery but didn't connect back with the British profits from the slave trade. Surprise its racism!
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