Trump signed an executive order today about mail in voting.
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Trump signed an executive order today about mail in voting. It's an attempt to restrict postal delivery of mail in ballots to people on a DHS-compiled list of citizens.
Rick Hasen has a nice summary (tl;dr: not much to get worked up over here, for both legal and practical reasons):
Breaking: President Trump Signs New Executive Order on Elections: It is Underwhelming Compared to What Was Threatened. It's Key Part is Likely Unconstitutional: Directing the Post Office to Reject Mail Ballots Except from Those on Federally Approved Voter Lists #ELB
President Trump has signed a second executive order purporting to regulate federal elections (especially mail ballots). His first executive order from March 2025 has already been enjoined in key parts for violating the Constitution. As Judge Kollar-Kotelly wrote in one … Continue reading Breaking: President Trump Signs New Executive Order on Elections: It is Underwhelming Compared to What Was Threatened. It’s Key Part is Likely Unconstitutional: Directing the Post Office to Reject Mail Ballots Except from Those on Federally Approved Voter Lists →
Election Law Blog (electionlawblog.org)
@mattblaze they are going throw lots of shit at the wall trying find something, anything that works.
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The postal provisions would place requirements on the ballot RETURN envelope (with the marked ballot sent back from the voter) that it must identify the voter via a barcode for comparison with the approved list. It would apply to envelopes marked as "official election mail", which is not a marking states are required to use, though most do.
Anyway, this will be challenged in court, and the logistics of it would make it pretty infeasible prior to the midterms in any case.
@mattblaze Would ballot drop boxes allow me to simply ignore this EO's potential impact on my vote altogether? I imagine zealots will camp out near drop boxes and try to illegally deny access, but I can get the ballot into the box way before election day, and then be sure that any illegal USPS conduct won't affect me because the county collects my ballot directly.
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@mattblaze Would ballot drop boxes allow me to simply ignore this EO's potential impact on my vote altogether? I imagine zealots will camp out near drop boxes and try to illegally deny access, but I can get the ballot into the box way before election day, and then be sure that any illegal USPS conduct won't affect me because the county collects my ballot directly.
@dutch_connection_uk The ballot delivery provisions of the EO applies (or attempts to apply) only to the USPS. So yes.
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Many ballots are already returned in plain envelops. The generic UOCAVA ballot, used by many military and expat overseas voters, is designed to be returned in a regular envelope. And some states allow "print-at-home" blank ballot forms for some or all voters, which are also returned by a regular, voter-supplied envelope.
It's worth trying to understand what problem this executive order is purporting to solve. It's not clear; you have to squint.
Trump and many of the election deniers have created a widespread impression that mail-in ballots are unsecured, and that there are no (or only ineffective) safeguards against sending in counterfeit, fake, or duplicated ballots and having them counted.
But, despite being repeated frequently, this impression is completely false and baseless, as I'll discuss.
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It's worth trying to understand what problem this executive order is purporting to solve. It's not clear; you have to squint.
Trump and many of the election deniers have created a widespread impression that mail-in ballots are unsecured, and that there are no (or only ineffective) safeguards against sending in counterfeit, fake, or duplicated ballots and having them counted.
But, despite being repeated frequently, this impression is completely false and baseless, as I'll discuss.
Mail in ballots have security features and a processing workflow that mirror that of in-person voting. Just about every mechanism that prevents you from showing up to vote in person multiple times or without being registered has an analog - sometimes a stronger one - in mail-in ballot processing.
The precise details vary from state to state and for different voters, but roughly:
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Mail in ballots have security features and a processing workflow that mirror that of in-person voting. Just about every mechanism that prevents you from showing up to vote in person multiple times or without being registered has an analog - sometimes a stronger one - in mail-in ballot processing.
The precise details vary from state to state and for different voters, but roughly:
1. Marked ballots are generally returned in two nested envelopes or wrappers; the inner wrapper has no identifying information, while the outer one is unique to the voter and has both identifying information and, generally, the voter's signature. In most cases the only way to obtain a valid ballot and envelope is to have it mailed to the address on file with the local election office.
2. The voter returns (by mail, dropbox, etc) their ballot in the two envelopes and signs the outer one.
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It's worth trying to understand what problem this executive order is purporting to solve. It's not clear; you have to squint.
Trump and many of the election deniers have created a widespread impression that mail-in ballots are unsecured, and that there are no (or only ineffective) safeguards against sending in counterfeit, fake, or duplicated ballots and having them counted.
But, despite being repeated frequently, this impression is completely false and baseless, as I'll discuss.
@mattblaze Oh, we know what problems it purports to solve: the insecurity of mail-in ballots and non-citizens voting. What is unclear is how this actually solves either (non-existent) problem.
We also know what problem they're actually trying to solve: Democrats voting. -
1. Marked ballots are generally returned in two nested envelopes or wrappers; the inner wrapper has no identifying information, while the outer one is unique to the voter and has both identifying information and, generally, the voter's signature. In most cases the only way to obtain a valid ballot and envelope is to have it mailed to the address on file with the local election office.
2. The voter returns (by mail, dropbox, etc) their ballot in the two envelopes and signs the outer one.
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3. When the ballot envelope reaches the election office, it's processed in two stages:
3a) First, the outer envelope is checked to verify that it contains the unique identifying information for the voter (usually a unique ID number), that that ballot wasn't already processed, and that the signature matches what's on file. If there is any discrepancy, the ballot is held for exception processing.
3b) If the verification was OK, the inner envelope (with the ballot inside) is sent to tallying.
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3. When the ballot envelope reaches the election office, it's processed in two stages:
3a) First, the outer envelope is checked to verify that it contains the unique identifying information for the voter (usually a unique ID number), that that ballot wasn't already processed, and that the signature matches what's on file. If there is any discrepancy, the ballot is held for exception processing.
3b) If the verification was OK, the inner envelope (with the ballot inside) is sent to tallying.
...@mattblaze
I conjecture that voters mostly fall in two groups:
1) Those who've never used vote-by-mail and maybe have suspicions.
2) Those who've used it for years and would never voluntarily stop using it. -
3. When the ballot envelope reaches the election office, it's processed in two stages:
3a) First, the outer envelope is checked to verify that it contains the unique identifying information for the voter (usually a unique ID number), that that ballot wasn't already processed, and that the signature matches what's on file. If there is any discrepancy, the ballot is held for exception processing.
3b) If the verification was OK, the inner envelope (with the ballot inside) is sent to tallying.
...4) The inner envelopes (of accepted ballots) are opened only later, in batches after they've been separated from the outer envelopes with the identifying information. This preserves ballot secrecy. Then the opened ballots are sent to the tally machines (generally optical scanners) and retained.
This workflow has a number of important properties.
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4) The inner envelopes (of accepted ballots) are opened only later, in batches after they've been separated from the outer envelopes with the identifying information. This preserves ballot secrecy. Then the opened ballots are sent to the tally machines (generally optical scanners) and retained.
This workflow has a number of important properties.
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- First, you can only send in a ballot accompanied (on the outer envelope) by something that was sent specifically to the voter, with unique identifying information that a third party couldn't obtain (the ballot ID number). And each ballot ID can only be processed once, since it's checked off a list once it's accepted.
- Second, the submitter of the ballot has to sign the voter's signature. So we know not only that the ballot was sent to them, but have a signature to compare it with.
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4) The inner envelopes (of accepted ballots) are opened only later, in batches after they've been separated from the outer envelopes with the identifying information. This preserves ballot secrecy. Then the opened ballots are sent to the tally machines (generally optical scanners) and retained.
This workflow has a number of important properties.
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@mattblaze I'm concerned that the existence of the EO, even unimplemented, will have a chilling effect on people who might feel their vote is less likely to be counted.
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- First, you can only send in a ballot accompanied (on the outer envelope) by something that was sent specifically to the voter, with unique identifying information that a third party couldn't obtain (the ballot ID number). And each ballot ID can only be processed once, since it's checked off a list once it's accepted.
- Second, the submitter of the ballot has to sign the voter's signature. So we know not only that the ballot was sent to them, but have a signature to compare it with.
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- Third, exceptions are extremely rare and would be quickly noticed. If an even moderate number of duplicate ballots or ballots with invalid ID numbers were to come it, that would be a HUGE deal (and I'm not aware of any place in the US where it's actually happened). It would rapidly trigger a major investigation, likely involving both state/local and federal authorities.
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- Third, exceptions are extremely rare and would be quickly noticed. If an even moderate number of duplicate ballots or ballots with invalid ID numbers were to come it, that would be a HUGE deal (and I'm not aware of any place in the US where it's actually happened). It would rapidly trigger a major investigation, likely involving both state/local and federal authorities.
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@mattblaze this part. People can be nefarious. The checks and balances thwart it from becoming impactful. Volunteer for your local elections!!!
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- Third, exceptions are extremely rare and would be quickly noticed. If an even moderate number of duplicate ballots or ballots with invalid ID numbers were to come it, that would be a HUGE deal (and I'm not aware of any place in the US where it's actually happened). It would rapidly trigger a major investigation, likely involving both state/local and federal authorities.
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So in summary, mail-in ballots are secured by mechanisms and processes that replicate all the steps of the check-in process at in-person precinct polling stations, but with the ADDITIONAL safeguard that the voter needs to provide a unique document that was sent to their address for each election.
The idea that mail-in voting invites fraud is simply not supported by reality.
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1. Marked ballots are generally returned in two nested envelopes or wrappers; the inner wrapper has no identifying information, while the outer one is unique to the voter and has both identifying information and, generally, the voter's signature. In most cases the only way to obtain a valid ballot and envelope is to have it mailed to the address on file with the local election office.
2. The voter returns (by mail, dropbox, etc) their ballot in the two envelopes and signs the outer one.
...
@mattblaze when I've done mail-in voting (in Canada, and for a US professional organization), it's been like this.
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3. When the ballot envelope reaches the election office, it's processed in two stages:
3a) First, the outer envelope is checked to verify that it contains the unique identifying information for the voter (usually a unique ID number), that that ballot wasn't already processed, and that the signature matches what's on file. If there is any discrepancy, the ballot is held for exception processing.
3b) If the verification was OK, the inner envelope (with the ballot inside) is sent to tallying.
...A useful feature available in California is they can send you texts or emails at this step saying that they got your ballot, and when it was counted.
(Though you do have to sign up for the ballot notifications)And I'm guessing if there was a problem you'd get a different message explaining how to fix the ballot. (But I haven't seen that one)
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@mattblaze I'm concerned that the existence of the EO, even unimplemented, will have a chilling effect on people who might feel their vote is less likely to be counted.
@jmjm @mattblaze But Utah and Oregon have universal mail-in voting. That's how everyone votes.
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It's worth trying to understand what problem this executive order is purporting to solve. It's not clear; you have to squint.
Trump and many of the election deniers have created a widespread impression that mail-in ballots are unsecured, and that there are no (or only ineffective) safeguards against sending in counterfeit, fake, or duplicated ballots and having them counted.
But, despite being repeated frequently, this impression is completely false and baseless, as I'll discuss.
@mattblaze two faced double tongue. Creeps
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So in summary, mail-in ballots are secured by mechanisms and processes that replicate all the steps of the check-in process at in-person precinct polling stations, but with the ADDITIONAL safeguard that the voter needs to provide a unique document that was sent to their address for each election.
The idea that mail-in voting invites fraud is simply not supported by reality.
@mattblaze @mattblaze We do all mail-in ballots in WA and it works just fine. We don't have walk-in polling centers anymore.
One advantage is you get a receipt and can go to a web site to see that your vote was received and counted.
