I know we all joke about passing around the same mutual aid $20 bill, but in a polycrisis world, it feels like there's also a parcel of moral support and caring that we pass around between people in different kinds of crisis and hardship, too.
-
I don't want to think that people have to go through hardship to develop empathy & compassion for others (or otherwise turn into good people). Hard times clearly don't effect everyone that way, but most of the best people in my life have been through awful things.
How do we make it possible for people to become good, caring people without putting them through hell? Sincere question. I'm always thinking about it.
If anyone has (constructive, non venting) thoughts, I'd love to hear them.
4/n
@ShaulaEvans
This Radiolab episode comes to mind, "Morality". One bit in it is about a kid who pushes another kid over and sees the scrape and blood and pain they caused, so that incident becomes an important memory and into their adulthood they go out of their way to help others.
https://radiolab.org/podcast/91508-morality -
I don't want to think that people have to go through hardship to develop empathy & compassion for others (or otherwise turn into good people). Hard times clearly don't effect everyone that way, but most of the best people in my life have been through awful things.
How do we make it possible for people to become good, caring people without putting them through hell? Sincere question. I'm always thinking about it.
If anyone has (constructive, non venting) thoughts, I'd love to hear them.
4/n
@ShaulaEvans
Its a good question, hard to answer. Making people care? I think such people would exist on a normal curve: a minority would never care, no matter what they experience, a minority up the other end would always care, without any personal trauma to initiate empathy.
The majority under the curve would suffer varying degrees of empathy. I've learned this: most people only tend to change when they are forced to due to circumstances.
I don't think there is a clear answer. -
@ShaulaEvans
This Radiolab episode comes to mind, "Morality". One bit in it is about a kid who pushes another kid over and sees the scrape and blood and pain they caused, so that incident becomes an important memory and into their adulthood they go out of their way to help others.
https://radiolab.org/podcast/91508-morality@HeliosPi Thank you! I'm reading the transcript right now.
> Now you're standing on a footbridge that passes over the tracks. You're looking down onto the tracks. There's no lever anywhere to be seen. Except next to you there is a guy./ .... If I push this man, give him a little tap, he'll land on the tracks, and he stops the train.
My brain: Okay but why don't I jump off the footbridge and stop the train with my body myself???
(I deeply hate the Trolley Problem. lol)
-
@ShaulaEvans
Its a good question, hard to answer. Making people care? I think such people would exist on a normal curve: a minority would never care, no matter what they experience, a minority up the other end would always care, without any personal trauma to initiate empathy.
The majority under the curve would suffer varying degrees of empathy. I've learned this: most people only tend to change when they are forced to due to circumstances.
I don't think there is a clear answer.@MostlyTato That distribution reminds me of the classic article Who Goes Nazi by Dorothy Thompson for Harper's Magazine in 1941.
-
@MostlyTato That distribution reminds me of the classic article Who Goes Nazi by Dorothy Thompson for Harper's Magazine in 1941.
> I don't think there is a clear answer.
My heart of hearts desperately wants to believe that there are multiple answers and they are just out in areas of expertise that I haven't encountered yet.
-
> I don't think there is a clear answer.
My heart of hearts desperately wants to believe that there are multiple answers and they are just out in areas of expertise that I haven't encountered yet.
@ShaulaEvans
I hope so. I think for most of us experience is a requisite for learning, and bad experience teaches harshly and can send people either way.
I think suffering can have a value for those capable of learning - but only up to a point, beyond which it is without value. And for those incapable of learning, no experience will change them in any meaningful way.
I think the answer is probably as complex as human psychology is. -
> I don't think there is a clear answer.
My heart of hearts desperately wants to believe that there are multiple answers and they are just out in areas of expertise that I haven't encountered yet.
@ShaulaEvans @MostlyTato
It's only a part answer, but I think the people who have the ability to be kind to the vulnerable also know how to be kind to their own vulnerability.
So if there is some way to teach that self empathy (other than life kicking the
outta ya) it would then easier to be present and to come alongside someone suffering. -
@ShaulaEvans @MostlyTato
It's only a part answer, but I think the people who have the ability to be kind to the vulnerable also know how to be kind to their own vulnerability.
So if there is some way to teach that self empathy (other than life kicking the outta ya) it would then easier to be present and to come alongside someone suffering.> ...I think the people who have the ability to be kind to the vulnerable also know how to be kind to their own vulnerability.
Wow, Valery. 🤯
That's a really powerful insight.
(I would like to be more kind to my own various vulnerabilities -- it's a work in progress -- but at least I'm acutely aware thanks to experience that neither mine nor anyone else's are a result of moral failings, and that's a start.)
-
@ShaulaEvans @MostlyTato
It's only a part answer, but I think the people who have the ability to be kind to the vulnerable also know how to be kind to their own vulnerability.
So if there is some way to teach that self empathy (other than life kicking the outta ya) it would then easier to be present and to come alongside someone suffering.@vlrny @ShaulaEvans
I think many find it easier to be kind to others than to themselves. Self kindness can be really hard due to the existence of guilt. But its wisdom surely not just to forgive others but to forgive oneself. And compassion to others is really compassion to oneself, you just have to come round to it by leaving the guilt to one side, gradually.
For me, forgiveness is a feeling rather than a statement of intent. Its easy to say something, its harder to genuinely feel it. -
> ...I think the people who have the ability to be kind to the vulnerable also know how to be kind to their own vulnerability.
Wow, Valery. 🤯
That's a really powerful insight.
(I would like to be more kind to my own various vulnerabilities -- it's a work in progress -- but at least I'm acutely aware thanks to experience that neither mine nor anyone else's are a result of moral failings, and that's a start.)
@ShaulaEvans @MostlyTato ooo good point.
Bad things happen to good people.
I think there's a huge amount of denial around that. And if they don't victim blame then they'd have to consider they are vulnerable to bad things happening too.
As an aside I am profoundly grateful for the people who do have the skills and the heart to still be there within the hard stuff. This community sustains me.
-
@vlrny @ShaulaEvans
I think many find it easier to be kind to others than to themselves. Self kindness can be really hard due to the existence of guilt. But its wisdom surely not just to forgive others but to forgive oneself. And compassion to others is really compassion to oneself, you just have to come round to it by leaving the guilt to one side, gradually.
For me, forgiveness is a feeling rather than a statement of intent. Its easy to say something, its harder to genuinely feel it.@MostlyTato @ShaulaEvans
I really struggle with forgiveness. Even with my intellectual capacity to empathize with those who suck at empathy. -
@MostlyTato @ShaulaEvans
I really struggle with forgiveness. Even with my intellectual capacity to empathize with those who suck at empathy.@vlrny @ShaulaEvans
If I'm honest, me too. I never tell anyone I forgive them unless I genuinely feel it. -
@vlrny @ShaulaEvans
If I'm honest, me too. I never tell anyone I forgive them unless I genuinely feel it.@MostlyTato @ShaulaEvans yeah, I need the forgiveness within my own heart. To stop carrying around that anger and that pain. The relationships themselves are long gone at this point.
-
I don't want to think that people have to go through hardship to develop empathy & compassion for others (or otherwise turn into good people). Hard times clearly don't effect everyone that way, but most of the best people in my life have been through awful things.
How do we make it possible for people to become good, caring people without putting them through hell? Sincere question. I'm always thinking about it.
If anyone has (constructive, non venting) thoughts, I'd love to hear them.
4/n
I am obviously biased, but I think my sons turned out to be very empathetic people and I believe part of that is their early and continual exposure literature that had female main characters along with lots of real life experience with other cultures ( India, Latino, and POC) and lifestyles (LGBTQ+).
Representation matters.
-
@MostlyTato @ShaulaEvans yeah, I need the forgiveness within my own heart. To stop carrying around that anger and that pain. The relationships themselves are long gone at this point.
@vlrny @ShaulaEvans
It is hard to lose anger and pain. Its not a choice, it has to come to you in time. I carry trauma and I mask constantly to deal with it. I carry anger and I use it as fuel because its better than the alternative. Which doesn't make it good. But you will play any hand when its all you are dealt.
I hope your experience leads you to be able at some point to drop your anger and your pain.
Edit: mine too
-
I am obviously biased, but I think my sons turned out to be very empathetic people and I believe part of that is their early and continual exposure literature that had female main characters along with lots of real life experience with other cultures ( India, Latino, and POC) and lifestyles (LGBTQ+).
Representation matters.
-
@vlrny @ShaulaEvans
It is hard to lose anger and pain. Its not a choice, it has to come to you in time. I carry trauma and I mask constantly to deal with it. I carry anger and I use it as fuel because its better than the alternative. Which doesn't make it good. But you will play any hand when its all you are dealt.
I hope your experience leads you to be able at some point to drop your anger and your pain.
Edit: mine too@MostlyTato @ShaulaEvans thank you for saying all this. 🥲
It's helpful to think of it as something that unfolds not something I push to do (and fail to do).
Hrm.. and also anger as protective energy, maybe can't let go of the anger until I feel more safe.
-
@MostlyTato @ShaulaEvans thank you for saying all this. 🥲
It's helpful to think of it as something that unfolds not something I push to do (and fail to do).
Hrm.. and also anger as protective energy, maybe can't let go of the anger until I feel more safe.
For me, anger motivates whereas depression stops you dead in your tracks. Neither is good, but its better to act than to give up. But that's just me. Anger has its consequences. It needs to be left behind in due course and replaced with something better.
I've found that for me its counter productive to to actively try to do something that I find inherently passive. Such things come with time and understanding, not effort or intent.
-
For me, anger motivates whereas depression stops you dead in your tracks. Neither is good, but its better to act than to give up. But that's just me. Anger has its consequences. It needs to be left behind in due course and replaced with something better.
I've found that for me its counter productive to to actively try to do something that I find inherently passive. Such things come with time and understanding, not effort or intent.
@MostlyTato @ShaulaEvans
"its better to act than to give up"
Amen to that! -
@MostlyTato @ShaulaEvans
"its better to act than to give up"
Amen to that!@vlrny @ShaulaEvans
Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
~Arthur AsheFinest words I ever heard, words one can try and live by in every breath. If you have anger, joy, guilt, hope, fear...use it.
-
R relay@relay.infosec.exchange shared this topic
