is linux ableist?
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@insecteuthanasia Now having said that, this isn't to say all linux OS are inaccessible. I found Ubuntu to have similar accessibility options to Windows, but the upkeep of those access options are not done well. Linux devs often fail to include the voices of disabled folks when determining features to implement. sometimes devs may belittle us if we try to bring up these issues. Why? Because devs aren't willing to examine their own biases.
We live in an ableist society and taught to be that way.
@insecteuthanasia Again, all OS systems suffer from ableism to some degree, but for disabled folks, Linux in particular can be like salt in a wound. We expected better from that community, and often we're left with scraps. We already deal with scraps from Windows and Macs.
Accessibility ought to be the core to any OS system as that would improve it for all people, not just disabled folks. But until we convince devs of that, OS systems will remain ableist to some degree.
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Just calling linux ableist without more specificity is weird, I would let it slide.
I read here (I think) that it was not great for people with impaired vision. That I can accept, a user trying it first hand and pointing at some shortcomings. (It is massively build by volounteers after all.)
Perhaps more ND people in here would like to chip in... Even then, I would say ND people don't fit in a single basket... My ND friend is a heavily advanced linux user... (NixOS)
@tseitr
yeah, i do agree on that last part. i am also ND and thats part of my confusion tbh. but i do not want to argue or assume and try to understand instead (especially since they tend to put the onus of educating on the other person). i do not know what their struggles are, though as far as i can tell they do not have vision problems. accessibility options in general are something ive thought of, i do not know what or how many accessibility options there are on linux distros (even the one i use, which is linux mint) compared to windows and mac. -
@insecteuthanasia Again, all OS systems suffer from ableism to some degree, but for disabled folks, Linux in particular can be like salt in a wound. We expected better from that community, and often we're left with scraps. We already deal with scraps from Windows and Macs.
Accessibility ought to be the core to any OS system as that would improve it for all people, not just disabled folks. But until we convince devs of that, OS systems will remain ableist to some degree.
@insecteuthanasia As for you being ableist for recommending linux? I wouldn't consider you so. I would consider your suggestion to be somewhat ignorant of the complexity regarding access with various OS systems. You reaching out to ask questions to better understand shows you care, so thank you for that.
I'm willing to chat more about it, but I'm out of energy now so need rest. So my replies may take a bit.
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is linux ableist? how?
some backstory: i was talking to a friend who was thinking of switching away from windows 10 to a mac because windows 11 is... well, terrible for a slew of reasons. i, perhaps too excitedly, brought up linux. they were talking about wanting something that works and i said i struggled with too and linux is actually much easier to use than i thought it'd be.
they then called me ableist for recommending linux because its assumptive that someone who is neurodivergent like them would have an easy time with linux at all. that how linux works itself is inaccessible and ableist in of itself (whereas macs and windows are not). i tried opening up a more in depth conversation about it but they werent available for it. so i figured id ask here, because im really confused, and would like to learn more
@insecteuthanasia I don't think linux itself is abelist in this instance, it's the assumption that Linux is "correct" due to a neurodivergence and using that as an argument for an operating system -
is linux ableist? how?
some backstory: i was talking to a friend who was thinking of switching away from windows 10 to a mac because windows 11 is... well, terrible for a slew of reasons. i, perhaps too excitedly, brought up linux. they were talking about wanting something that works and i said i struggled with too and linux is actually much easier to use than i thought it'd be.
they then called me ableist for recommending linux because its assumptive that someone who is neurodivergent like them would have an easy time with linux at all. that how linux works itself is inaccessible and ableist in of itself (whereas macs and windows are not). i tried opening up a more in depth conversation about it but they werent available for it. so i figured id ask here, because im really confused, and would like to learn more
@insecteuthanasia sounds like a history problem your friend needs therapy for that you walked into through no fault of your own.
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@insecteuthanasia As for you being ableist for recommending linux? I wouldn't consider you so. I would consider your suggestion to be somewhat ignorant of the complexity regarding access with various OS systems. You reaching out to ask questions to better understand shows you care, so thank you for that.
I'm willing to chat more about it, but I'm out of energy now so need rest. So my replies may take a bit.
@Aaidanbird
thank you so much for this! i did overlook that first fact (OSes being ableist because they have nondisabled people in mind) even though im aware of it in institutions and architecture. it makes complete sense to me now. despite being disabled for awhile it wasnt until relatively recently that i started even considering myself disabled and even more recently started learning about and how to fight ableism. its tough but essential work for the people around me but also for myself. I'm grateful for the help!also, linux communities handing out scraps and devs unwilling to examine their biases sounds awful. I've dealt with similar experiences with other communities. its been really frustrating and feels worse when they not only do the bare minimum but also do not react well to being asked to do more.
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@insecteuthanasia As for you being ableist for recommending linux? I wouldn't consider you so. I would consider your suggestion to be somewhat ignorant of the complexity regarding access with various OS systems. You reaching out to ask questions to better understand shows you care, so thank you for that.
I'm willing to chat more about it, but I'm out of energy now so need rest. So my replies may take a bit.
also, would you mind if i boost these? i think its really informative and helpful!
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is linux ableist? how?
some backstory: i was talking to a friend who was thinking of switching away from windows 10 to a mac because windows 11 is... well, terrible for a slew of reasons. i, perhaps too excitedly, brought up linux. they were talking about wanting something that works and i said i struggled with too and linux is actually much easier to use than i thought it'd be.
they then called me ableist for recommending linux because its assumptive that someone who is neurodivergent like them would have an easy time with linux at all. that how linux works itself is inaccessible and ableist in of itself (whereas macs and windows are not). i tried opening up a more in depth conversation about it but they werent available for it. so i figured id ask here, because im really confused, and would like to learn more
@insecteuthanasia on the contrary imho - i am ND and i switched to Linux Mint about a year ago and I think its great! It looks more or less the same as windows and does everything i need it to - but its all FOSS - which that alone is more accessible - because i can't afford software subscriptions on disability
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also, would you mind if i boost these? i think its really informative and helpful!
Under system settings there's usually a section for accessibility (this way in OpenSUSE which I'm using at this moment). Basically, I don't need most of these enhancements, but I do increase the size of the cursor. There are also specific distros for accessibility. Orca is the screen reader for Linux.
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also, would you mind if i boost these? i think its really informative and helpful!
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is linux ableist? how?
some backstory: i was talking to a friend who was thinking of switching away from windows 10 to a mac because windows 11 is... well, terrible for a slew of reasons. i, perhaps too excitedly, brought up linux. they were talking about wanting something that works and i said i struggled with too and linux is actually much easier to use than i thought it'd be.
they then called me ableist for recommending linux because its assumptive that someone who is neurodivergent like them would have an easy time with linux at all. that how linux works itself is inaccessible and ableist in of itself (whereas macs and windows are not). i tried opening up a more in depth conversation about it but they werent available for it. so i figured id ask here, because im really confused, and would like to learn more
@insecteuthanasia Such people are idiots who don't wanna learn anything beyond Windows/MacOS.
Like installing Debian and teaching people how to use the store to add apps doesn't take much practice.
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Under system settings there's usually a section for accessibility (this way in OpenSUSE which I'm using at this moment). Basically, I don't need most of these enhancements, but I do increase the size of the cursor. There are also specific distros for accessibility. Orca is the screen reader for Linux.
Yes, there are some access programs. I'm not saying there isn't any. But most aren't built into the OS itself. They are addons. Also knowing which linux distros have access options is difficult at best, which also makes it inaccessible.
The problem I'm identifying is that Operating Systems haven't been built with access in mind. Most are built for nondisabled bodies and minds, and that's the problem. We need to push to change the approach to building OS's.
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Yes, there are some access programs. I'm not saying there isn't any. But most aren't built into the OS itself. They are addons. Also knowing which linux distros have access options is difficult at best, which also makes it inaccessible.
The problem I'm identifying is that Operating Systems haven't been built with access in mind. Most are built for nondisabled bodies and minds, and that's the problem. We need to push to change the approach to building OS's.
In the meantime, we also need:
1. Easily read and findable access guides to accessible linux OS.
2. Make access tech easily useable or easy to find and install for linux distros.
3. Create focus groups with disabled people present to collaborate on accessible features.
4. Bake access into future updates.
5. Craft better access features. (most offer bare min like windows if that) and highlight these to our community to show ways linux improves access. -
In the meantime, we also need:
1. Easily read and findable access guides to accessible linux OS.
2. Make access tech easily useable or easy to find and install for linux distros.
3. Create focus groups with disabled people present to collaborate on accessible features.
4. Bake access into future updates.
5. Craft better access features. (most offer bare min like windows if that) and highlight these to our community to show ways linux improves access.Linux is working against a very negative image of being:
1. Elitist and for programmers mostly.
2. Requiring heavy and often inaccessible setup to install and operate.
3. Many different types that overwhelm those researching. Little to no guides written for nontechnical users.To overcome that requires work and collaboration with disabled community. It's doable but difficult.
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is linux ableist? how?
some backstory: i was talking to a friend who was thinking of switching away from windows 10 to a mac because windows 11 is... well, terrible for a slew of reasons. i, perhaps too excitedly, brought up linux. they were talking about wanting something that works and i said i struggled with too and linux is actually much easier to use than i thought it'd be.
they then called me ableist for recommending linux because its assumptive that someone who is neurodivergent like them would have an easy time with linux at all. that how linux works itself is inaccessible and ableist in of itself (whereas macs and windows are not). i tried opening up a more in depth conversation about it but they werent available for it. so i figured id ask here, because im really confused, and would like to learn more
@insecteuthanasia I don't think your friend was going to listen whatever you said!
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is linux ableist? how?
some backstory: i was talking to a friend who was thinking of switching away from windows 10 to a mac because windows 11 is... well, terrible for a slew of reasons. i, perhaps too excitedly, brought up linux. they were talking about wanting something that works and i said i struggled with too and linux is actually much easier to use than i thought it'd be.
they then called me ableist for recommending linux because its assumptive that someone who is neurodivergent like them would have an easy time with linux at all. that how linux works itself is inaccessible and ableist in of itself (whereas macs and windows are not). i tried opening up a more in depth conversation about it but they werent available for it. so i figured id ask here, because im really confused, and would like to learn more
@insecteuthanasia
I am austic, with very moderate computer skills. I moved to mint, using a commercial usb device, i found the instructions to create a bootable drive confusing. I used it from this for a while before replacing windows.
I am general user, and was able to use this with no real issues. I expect i will be able to modify my set-up over time. Just one point for linux wizards, sometimes all we want, all we can do is pictures, email, browsing simple spreadsheets and typing letters -
Linux is working against a very negative image of being:
1. Elitist and for programmers mostly.
2. Requiring heavy and often inaccessible setup to install and operate.
3. Many different types that overwhelm those researching. Little to no guides written for nontechnical users.To overcome that requires work and collaboration with disabled community. It's doable but difficult.
I'm an academic historian. I've been using Linux since 2003 and since 2005 only Linux (although I maintain my partner's Win system). I once tried to install Windows from scratch - so many hoops to go through just to get to installation. Anyone being an initial user with Linux should start with Mint. From there you can progress (I've been a distro hopper since 2005). It's all FUD. Linux is perfectly accessible now and doesn't track or compel you to use AI.
As to your other point, of course developers should consult people with disabilities, but there are specialist Linux distros out there.
There is a list of distros with features for accessibility with Orca pre-installed.
https://itsfoss.com/visual-impaired-linux/ -
is linux ableist? how?
some backstory: i was talking to a friend who was thinking of switching away from windows 10 to a mac because windows 11 is... well, terrible for a slew of reasons. i, perhaps too excitedly, brought up linux. they were talking about wanting something that works and i said i struggled with too and linux is actually much easier to use than i thought it'd be.
they then called me ableist for recommending linux because its assumptive that someone who is neurodivergent like them would have an easy time with linux at all. that how linux works itself is inaccessible and ableist in of itself (whereas macs and windows are not). i tried opening up a more in depth conversation about it but they werent available for it. so i figured id ask here, because im really confused, and would like to learn more
Short version: no, Linux is not ableist.
Longer version: the Linux ecosystem suffers a limited support for people with vision issues, yes.
But that's arguably the one "ableist" issue that can be attributed to Linux.
Offensive version: claiming Linux is not neurodivergent-friendly is... have you SEEN us linux people? To use an offensive stereotype: we are are hyperfixated nerds. You could probably use us as litmus test for neurodivergency.
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