Noam Chomsky is one of those people that some people will defend reflexively without even thinking.
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@lykso
I might need to put this on a T-shirt. -
You don't owe your loyalty to someone just because they happened to be useful in the evolution of your thinking. You can be glad you found something of use & move the fuck on.
As previously stated, plenty of marginalized folks (Black, indigenous, queer, disabled, etc.) have more to offer to you, especially if you bring it all together.
Even there though, don't fucking idolize people. There is no amount of "good" someone can do that should shield them from accountability for their own actions.
@artemis Michael Parenti, his Inventing Reality is great.
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@artemis Every single person in the Epstein email archive who wasn't just sending something legally/clerically/whatever necessary to send, any kind of personal correspondence of any form, belongs under a guillotine. No question about it.
@dalias
Yep. I'm not playing games with people about "oh, he was only friendly with Epstein because..."No, fuck that shit. It's more than just a child sex-trafficking ring even, as fucking damning as that is. It's participation in a class of people who believe in (and practice) their "right" to abuse & oppress with total impunity, a class of people who murder people not one by one, not even in the dozens. They deal in murder on the level of millions. There are no fucking "good guys" here.
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You don't owe your loyalty to someone just because they happened to be useful in the evolution of your thinking. You can be glad you found something of use & move the fuck on.
As previously stated, plenty of marginalized folks (Black, indigenous, queer, disabled, etc.) have more to offer to you, especially if you bring it all together.
Even there though, don't fucking idolize people. There is no amount of "good" someone can do that should shield them from accountability for their own actions.
@artemis No gods, no masters, no heros. You can learn something from everyone, even if it's what not to do. As much as I had to fight my own indoctrination, class typically matters more than most anything else when it comes down to it.
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"Noam Chomsky didn't abuse any girls".
Um, my friend, how can you possibly confidently state that like you know that for sure? Especially when Chomsky has now been exposed as having a lot of correspondence with Epstein, mentioned how excited he was for "the Caribbean island", & told Epstein he was sorry that he was having "Me Too" problems & commiserated about how terrible it is to have women speaking up about abuse. To name a couple things.
@artemis I don't know if Chomsky abused anyone, but I do know that he remained friends with Epstein and sent him comforting emails, calling him a victim of the press, even after it was public knowledge that Epstein was a child rapist and trafficker.
And, well, much as I used to admire Chomsky, this is why I don't admire him anymore. Someone with such a catastrophically poor sense of moral judgment is not an admirable person.
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You don't owe your loyalty to someone just because they happened to be useful in the evolution of your thinking. You can be glad you found something of use & move the fuck on.
As previously stated, plenty of marginalized folks (Black, indigenous, queer, disabled, etc.) have more to offer to you, especially if you bring it all together.
Even there though, don't fucking idolize people. There is no amount of "good" someone can do that should shield them from accountability for their own actions.
I know that it's actually hard for a lot of us to process what the Epstein files really expose about the wealthy elite & the people they keep around them because it's just so cartoonishly villainous.
It feels absurd.
I get it. I do. As much as I knew the whole system has got to go, as much as I knew that billionaires are mass murderers & their lackeys are participants & accomplices, somehow the world these people created for themselves feels unreal.
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I know that it's actually hard for a lot of us to process what the Epstein files really expose about the wealthy elite & the people they keep around them because it's just so cartoonishly villainous.
It feels absurd.
I get it. I do. As much as I knew the whole system has got to go, as much as I knew that billionaires are mass murderers & their lackeys are participants & accomplices, somehow the world these people created for themselves feels unreal.
But y'all, these are the people fighting to protect & preserve rape culture & their cronies & accomplices. These are the people who think there are too many people in the world & some need to die off. THESE are the people when we say "they" are trying to control everyone & everything.
I refuse to use the word "cabal" because of its antisemitic connotations (seriously, let's not), but this is indeed the real global conspiracy among the rich & powerful & those who participate in their mission.
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But y'all, these are the people fighting to protect & preserve rape culture & their cronies & accomplices. These are the people who think there are too many people in the world & some need to die off. THESE are the people when we say "they" are trying to control everyone & everything.
I refuse to use the word "cabal" because of its antisemitic connotations (seriously, let's not), but this is indeed the real global conspiracy among the rich & powerful & those who participate in their mission.
People actually familiar with Chomsky's history could tell you a thousand different reasons why no one should have still been trusting him before this (I don't blame you if this is your first time hearing this...his scam has been supported by the media for a long time), but even without that, it is not possible for this man to both be sincere about his public opinions AND be a member of this crowd. That's not how it fucking works.
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But y'all, these are the people fighting to protect & preserve rape culture & their cronies & accomplices. These are the people who think there are too many people in the world & some need to die off. THESE are the people when we say "they" are trying to control everyone & everything.
I refuse to use the word "cabal" because of its antisemitic connotations (seriously, let's not), but this is indeed the real global conspiracy among the rich & powerful & those who participate in their mission.
@artemis if we hold these defenders of rape culture to account then we will also need to hold those who goon out to rape porn to account as well. Many men, sorry to call em out refuse to engage with this conspiracy because on some level, even through they are not rich and powerful, are also implicated in the culture that allowed this to happen.
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People actually familiar with Chomsky's history could tell you a thousand different reasons why no one should have still been trusting him before this (I don't blame you if this is your first time hearing this...his scam has been supported by the media for a long time), but even without that, it is not possible for this man to both be sincere about his public opinions AND be a member of this crowd. That's not how it fucking works.
We have to face it. I've seen the defense "well lots of business people, academics, etc. were friendly with Epstein, so how do we know how serious it was".
Do they even HEAR what they are saying? Those are the people who have been bribed, flattered, & blackmailed (for their crimes & misconduct) into participation & complicity. They aren't innocents, my dears. They are the lackeys of the oppressors.
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R relay@relay.publicsquare.global shared this topic
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You don't owe your loyalty to someone just because they happened to be useful in the evolution of your thinking. You can be glad you found something of use & move the fuck on.
As previously stated, plenty of marginalized folks (Black, indigenous, queer, disabled, etc.) have more to offer to you, especially if you bring it all together.
Even there though, don't fucking idolize people. There is no amount of "good" someone can do that should shield them from accountability for their own actions.
@artemis Well said. All of it. Spot on.
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Noam Chomsky is one of those people that some people will defend reflexively without even thinking.
Try not to have powerful people that you defend reflexively without even thinking.
That's abuse culture.
@artemis
Exactly! -
Noam Chomsky is one of those people that some people will defend reflexively without even thinking.
Try not to have powerful people that you defend reflexively without even thinking.
That's abuse culture.
@artemis I've been dubious of Chomsky for a long time, but that was because some of his ideas on language origin seemed perilously close to phrenology. That said, yeah, never idolize anyone, they're just humans like everybody else.
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You don't owe your loyalty to someone just because they happened to be useful in the evolution of your thinking. You can be glad you found something of use & move the fuck on.
As previously stated, plenty of marginalized folks (Black, indigenous, queer, disabled, etc.) have more to offer to you, especially if you bring it all together.
Even there though, don't fucking idolize people. There is no amount of "good" someone can do that should shield them from accountability for their own actions.
@artemis To idolise anyone is to dehumanise them. No matter how much you admire them, idolising them robs them of the human right to be deeply flawed and... human.
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Some people are absolutely refusing to understand the abuse culture that the Epstein files are pulling back the curtain on.
Epstein's "friends" were all accomplices. Stop making excuses. I don't need to establish whether Chomsky physically harmed a child himself to state with confidence that he was complicit as fuck.
If Chomsky is 1/3 as smart as some people think he is, then he understood just fine what was going on.
Are you willing to slap someone who is willfully ignorant? That's where a lot of us were last week. That seems to be the line where a lot of folks are switching their views. There are a lot of armchair sloths who just want to do what their neighbors are willing to allow them to be. You have to have someone else in the room willing to get angry, then the sloths start to look for what's expected of them. If they turn down the expectation you have to respond the way you train a dog to go on the paper. You have to shame them.
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@artemis I'm kind of feeling vindicated because I always thought he was sus as hell and got beef from my leftist friends for it.
@quinn@social.circl.lu @artemis@dice.camp i've been feeling kinda confused because i thought lots of folks realized was creep ages ago? did they forget or was i just correctly misinformed? [rhetorical]
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@artemis if we hold these defenders of rape culture to account then we will also need to hold those who goon out to rape porn to account as well. Many men, sorry to call em out refuse to engage with this conspiracy because on some level, even through they are not rich and powerful, are also implicated in the culture that allowed this to happen.
@sayonaraminasan @artemis
Fine. Let’s stop feeding the beast. -
@quinn@social.circl.lu @artemis@dice.camp i've been feeling kinda confused because i thought lots of folks realized was creep ages ago? did they forget or was i just correctly misinformed? [rhetorical]
@tryst @quinn
He's one of those guys where it goes in waves, I think. Some people will literally defend him from ANYTHING, & others may just not hear about it. I've had a little red flag next to his name for a while, but never had a reason to get much further than that, since I've only interacted with his work on a very surface level & he's not in the public eye anymore.People have been enlightening me today with additional reasons no one should trust him that have accumulated over the years.
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@artemis @shadowfals Yeah, this is right.
I find I'm often needing to point out that, until the early 2000s, popular discourse in the US was severely constricted and dominated by commercial media, which systematically censored any mention of leftist groups or ideas.
Chomsky was about at the limit of what they'd tolerate, in detailing US atrocities and malign foreign policy, based on public records and mainstream journalistic accounts. Significantly, Chomsky would always deflect any questions about what alternatives he'd support, rarely going further than supporting abstract resistance.
Near as I can tell, it was the 1980 Neoliberal coup that abruptly and ruthlessly shut down all anti-authoritarian populist discourse in the USA. The 60's and 70's were a lot more open and well connected. Before that of course, was The Red Scare...
I guess libraries might have been a good source. They were pretty fiesty until the year 2001, when Bush's PATRIOT act turned them by force into watered down daycare centers and government schills.
CC: @artemis@dice.camp @shadowfals@toot.cat -
@artemis @shadowfals Yep. To expand, he was famous for two academic fields: Initially as a linguist, famous for his work on the relationship between syntax and grammar for conveying meaning ("Colorful green ideas sleep furiously" is grammatically correct with no meaning — that's his — as is the claim that "cellar door" is the most beautiful phrase in English). And later for his far-left politics, specifically as a vocal proponent of anarchism and for calling out US imperialism before it was common to hear such things. He famously called out the US government for maintaining the dictatorship in East Timor over the will of its people. Which was my first awareness that the US did such things.
I wasn't a huge fan but I found his work thought-provoking. But I've gotten used to dumping figures if they're outed as abusers. There are so many people I've loved so much more that I've dumped over far less. He had his place in history, and that moment has moved on.
@corbden @artemis @shadowfals same. So many artists, scientists, actors, authors, friends, family…I cut them all out at first red flag.
