If you ask AI to rewrite the entirety of an open-source program, do you still need to abide by the original license?
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@ArneBab @kevinr @lcamtuf @bgalehouse
Fair use isn't something the GPL grants you. That's what I'm trying to work out - set the GPL aside for a moment.
Does regular copyright fair use give me the right to look at the freely provided source code, make a mental model, and re-implement a workalike if I don't re-use the original source?
Pretend it's just me and not an AI, because that throws a whole new set of confusion into the mix.
BSD did it against regular copyright. Not sure this is all that different.
@tbortels as far as I know, and as the article https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/how-compaqs-clone-computers-skirted-ibms-patents-and-gave-rise-to-eisa/ reinforces, fair use does not give you the right to re-implement the code.
Doesn’t matter whether you make a mental model as the intermediate step.
Only the clean room re-implementation gets out of that.
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@ArneBab @lcamtuf @kevinr @bgalehouse
We entered a gray zone about 8 off-ramps ago. Copyright never anticipated self-replicating code on computers and viral licenses and clean-room re-implementations and AIs.
As for income - I've lost track of the original driver, but it's GPL'd free code, no?
I like fair use. It and parody are one of the very few things keeping us out of peasants-with-pitchforks-and-torches mode. If you eliminate those carve-outs, the whole system goes down.
@tbortels GPL’d means that you can generate income as long as you adhere to the license (⇒ keep changes free, too).
If you want to wiggle out of that requirement with a re-implementation, that’s where you enter the gray area, because if it is a violation of the GPL, then the permissions the GPL granted you no longer apply and you have to check against regular "all rights reserved".
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@tbortels GPL’d means that you can generate income as long as you adhere to the license (⇒ keep changes free, too).
If you want to wiggle out of that requirement with a re-implementation, that’s where you enter the gray area, because if it is a violation of the GPL, then the permissions the GPL granted you no longer apply and you have to check against regular "all rights reserved".
@tbortels fair use is always risky, because it only gives you conditional rights: if you take something via the fair use exception, you cannot use the result in any circumstance that would not be considered fair use, too.
At least that’s my understanding of copyright and fair use. Differences between copyright in different countries adds a whole additional layer to that (there is no fair use in the EU, but there are "limitations and exceptions to copyright").
@lcamtuf @kevinr @bgalehouse -
@tbortels fair use is always risky, because it only gives you conditional rights: if you take something via the fair use exception, you cannot use the result in any circumstance that would not be considered fair use, too.
At least that’s my understanding of copyright and fair use. Differences between copyright in different countries adds a whole additional layer to that (there is no fair use in the EU, but there are "limitations and exceptions to copyright").
@lcamtuf @kevinr @bgalehouse@tbortels for parody there was the famous lawsuit of Erdogan vs. Böhmermann about the goat fucker poem where Böhmermann won (because of context and maybe also because the lawsuit of Erdogan provided the context which made the poem legal), but it is illegal to publish that poem outside of the context of the show (that explained which kinds of works actually are illegal and used that as an example), and the show cannot be published again, because context changed now.
@lcamtuf @kevinr @bgalehouse -
@ArneBab @kevinr @SnoopJ @bgalehouse @lcamtuf I think it's more complicated. Consider program A licensed under GPL and program B licensed under BSD license. Code from program B can be copied into program A, but code from program A cannot be copied to program B without applying GPL to program B (changing the license). At least that's how it works as I understand it.
@thebluewizard yes, the details are more complicated, but it doesn’t reduce the complexity of deciding which code has to be excluded.
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@lcamtuf @kevinr @rustynail @ahltorp @bgalehouse @revk
If AI code cannot be copyrighted - you have no mechanism on which to force someone to accept the GPL, or any license. An AI artifact covered by GPL is meaningless.
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@tbortels for parody there was the famous lawsuit of Erdogan vs. Böhmermann about the goat fucker poem where Böhmermann won (because of context and maybe also because the lawsuit of Erdogan provided the context which made the poem legal), but it is illegal to publish that poem outside of the context of the show (that explained which kinds of works actually are illegal and used that as an example), and the show cannot be published again, because context changed now.
@lcamtuf @kevinr @bgalehouse@tbortels The show with the poem ended with the legendary song that was later republished independently:
https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=HMQkV5cTuoY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMQkV5cTuoY -
If you ask AI to rewrite the entirety of an open-source program, do you still need to abide by the original license? In philosophy, this problem is known as the Slop of Theseus
@lcamtuf@infosec.exchange If Theseus asked his dad to curse a foss project because he was tricked by his cousin into believing the foss project is vibe coded, can the foss project be brought back to life?
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@lcamtuf @kevinr @rustynail @ahltorp @bgalehouse @revk
If AI code cannot be copyrighted - you have no mechanism on which to force someone to accept the GPL, or any license. An AI artifact covered by GPL is meaningless.
@tbortels @lcamtuf @kevinr @rustynail @bgalehouse @revk You can’t take GPL code, put it through the identity function, and then end up with non-GPL code, just because you claim it was produced by a machine. Even when it’s a more advanced process, like a compiler, the resulting code is not less bound by copyright than the source.
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@lcamtuf
It is the problem of software patents. No need to have an AI : if an human writes a new software that does exactly the same thing than a free software, is it the same software? -
If you ask AI to rewrite the entirety of an open-source program, do you still need to abide by the original license? In philosophy, this problem is known as the Slop of Theseus
@lcamtuf
Pretty sure the output is unlicensable public domain, if we accept that the original license has been washed off. -
