i feel that the grammar of a programming language is among the least appropriate of all possible facets of its behavior to start off with.
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yeah and then he mentions three separate times how scientists can use it to do new science together. it seems important that scientists are on it at all
and i found all that about DARPA salivating over people never writing their own programs again because of:
- the seL4 paper which got best paper https://web.archive.org/web/20110219113850/http://www.ok-labs.com/releases/release/open-kernel-labs-paper-on-formal-verification-wins-top-prize-at-prestigious
still think this paper is terrible. it keeps saying it made compromises for verifiability and wildly overstates the guarantees
turns out that conference SOSP is literally the (ACM) conference whose first year was when a big ARPANET thing was unveiled https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symposium_on_Operating_Systems_Principles
there's these unstructured notes from the fucking pentagon lmao https://web.archive.org/web/20150405055923/https://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/library/extra4/sloan/mousesite/EngelbartPapers/B1_F20_CompuMtg.html
and finally this is IETF at its best https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_resource choose the most generic possible term that sounds like page cache, but it specifically means network share
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and i found all that about DARPA salivating over people never writing their own programs again because of:
- the seL4 paper which got best paper https://web.archive.org/web/20110219113850/http://www.ok-labs.com/releases/release/open-kernel-labs-paper-on-formal-verification-wins-top-prize-at-prestigious
still think this paper is terrible. it keeps saying it made compromises for verifiability and wildly overstates the guarantees
turns out that conference SOSP is literally the (ACM) conference whose first year was when a big ARPANET thing was unveiled https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symposium_on_Operating_Systems_Principles
there's these unstructured notes from the fucking pentagon lmao https://web.archive.org/web/20150405055923/https://web.stanford.edu/dept/SUL/library/extra4/sloan/mousesite/EngelbartPapers/B1_F20_CompuMtg.html
and finally this is IETF at its best https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_resource choose the most generic possible term that sounds like page cache, but it specifically means network share
oh this is a great tidbit
Before 2023, SOSP was held every other year, alternating with the conference on Operating Systems Design and Implementation (OSDI);
- starting 2024, SOSP began to be held every year.
lots of weird things like this
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oh this is a great tidbit
Before 2023, SOSP was held every other year, alternating with the conference on Operating Systems Design and Implementation (OSDI);
- starting 2024, SOSP began to be held every year.
lots of weird things like this
oh then i found this guy who was at the arpanet conference http://royalsocietypublishing.org/rsbm/article-pdf/doi/10.1098/rsbm.2002.0006/911101/rsbm.2002.0006.pdf
so like this guy is easily off the charts evil imho. this is him saying he was smarter and braver than alan turing:
My few contacts with Turing were not encouraging. I wanted to talk to him about the remarkable results of his paper ‘On computable numbers’. Reading this paper I had found numerous errors in the formal specification of the universal computer. Some were trivial but others were quite subtle and I was not sure that my solutions were correct. When I came to this point, Turing became more and more agitated, until I could see that no sensible discussion was possible. Clearly he felt the errors to be irrelevant and my drawing attention to them rather foolish.
then he mysteriously advises on "cryptography" from the late 80s until he finally fucked off this planet
Retirement did not by any means imply inactivity. For the next 15 years Davies practised
as a consultant in security engineering for the financial and media industries. This was at a
time when systems based on cryptographic and similar techniques were coming into wide use
both for cash cards and pay television. -
oh then i found this guy who was at the arpanet conference http://royalsocietypublishing.org/rsbm/article-pdf/doi/10.1098/rsbm.2002.0006/911101/rsbm.2002.0006.pdf
so like this guy is easily off the charts evil imho. this is him saying he was smarter and braver than alan turing:
My few contacts with Turing were not encouraging. I wanted to talk to him about the remarkable results of his paper ‘On computable numbers’. Reading this paper I had found numerous errors in the formal specification of the universal computer. Some were trivial but others were quite subtle and I was not sure that my solutions were correct. When I came to this point, Turing became more and more agitated, until I could see that no sensible discussion was possible. Clearly he felt the errors to be irrelevant and my drawing attention to them rather foolish.
then he mysteriously advises on "cryptography" from the late 80s until he finally fucked off this planet
Retirement did not by any means imply inactivity. For the next 15 years Davies practised
as a consultant in security engineering for the financial and media industries. This was at a
time when systems based on cryptographic and similar techniques were coming into wide use
both for cash cards and pay television.omg
Davies was very much an engineer rather than a scientist, and he was always on the lookout
for topics in which his ingenuity and insight could be deployed.guy who steals people's ideas
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omg
Davies was very much an engineer rather than a scientist, and he was always on the lookout
for topics in which his ingenuity and insight could be deployed.guy who steals people's ideas
He was early in the field of civil uses of cryptography and always had a healthy scepticism of claims to perfection.
terrifying
Mathematical proof of the security of a system struck him as dubious, because it is much easier to prove resistance to attacks one has thought about than it is to prove resistance to attacks one has not thought about.
guy who knows how cryptography works
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He was early in the field of civil uses of cryptography and always had a healthy scepticism of claims to perfection.
terrifying
Mathematical proof of the security of a system struck him as dubious, because it is much easier to prove resistance to attacks one has thought about than it is to prove resistance to attacks one has not thought about.
guy who knows how cryptography works
omg the EROS author is literally validating all my ideas about the macrokernel love that for me
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omg the EROS author is literally validating all my ideas about the macrokernel love that for me
Systems programs are strongly driven by bulk I/O
performance.he keeps talking about multiple aliasing being problematic and of course this is why i decided to never share anything and instead have layered i/o queues
In systems code, the effect of representation and data placement can be extreme. Bonwick et al. discuss some of these effects [5], noting that the performance of system-level benchmarks can change by 50% through careful management of cache residency and collisions.
but how do you manage something "carefully" if all the interfaces allow for is urgency???
This tends to penalize the performance of automatic storage reclamation strategies. To make matters more interesting, there are caches.
yeah it rly annoys me how the filesystem has its own caches and the kernel has its own caches but there's this assumption that persistence is always the final destiny of all writes
It follows that user-managed storage is a requirement, but perhaps not in fully general form.
that's exactly it!
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Systems programs are strongly driven by bulk I/O
performance.he keeps talking about multiple aliasing being problematic and of course this is why i decided to never share anything and instead have layered i/o queues
In systems code, the effect of representation and data placement can be extreme. Bonwick et al. discuss some of these effects [5], noting that the performance of system-level benchmarks can change by 50% through careful management of cache residency and collisions.
but how do you manage something "carefully" if all the interfaces allow for is urgency???
This tends to penalize the performance of automatic storage reclamation strategies. To make matters more interesting, there are caches.
yeah it rly annoys me how the filesystem has its own caches and the kernel has its own caches but there's this assumption that persistence is always the final destiny of all writes
It follows that user-managed storage is a requirement, but perhaps not in fully general form.
that's exactly it!
The facts say otherwise. The annual cost to operate a large banking data center today is $150,000 per square foot. It is by far the most expensive real estate in the world, and more than one third of that cost is the cost of cooling the data center.
2006!!!!
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The facts say otherwise. The annual cost to operate a large banking data center today is $150,000 per square foot. It is by far the most expensive real estate in the world, and more than one third of that cost is the cost of cooling the data center.
2006!!!!
wait shit he had a point:
The general rule of thumb is that power
is proportional to V2F: the square of the voltage times the frequency. Most of this power is wasted as heat. To a system’s programmer, the cost of doubling the clock rate is $50,000 per square foot per machine room.do i detect an IETF hater???
Raising the clock rate decidedly isn’t free, and walking into the network distribution closet at your business or school will quickly convince you that current power usage is excessive.
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wait shit he had a point:
The general rule of thumb is that power
is proportional to V2F: the square of the voltage times the frequency. Most of this power is wasted as heat. To a system’s programmer, the cost of doubling the clock rate is $50,000 per square foot per machine room.do i detect an IETF hater???
Raising the clock rate decidedly isn’t free, and walking into the network distribution closet at your business or school will quickly convince you that current power usage is excessive.
oh oops he glazes up tcp/ip immediately after. this is "Programming Language Challenges in Systems Codes" by jonathan shapiro
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oh oops he glazes up tcp/ip immediately after. this is "Programming Language Challenges in Systems Codes" by jonathan shapiro
on the internet:
Large block processing costs are dominated by memory bandwidth, not software overheads.
that makes sense. the difficulty with fitting network i/o into my beautiful symphony of data locality is that the network is "necessary global" in some sense, and can't do multi-level queueing or w/e because you can't dictate to network resources how fast or slow to send data to you!
As Blackwell discusses [4], processing overhead on smaller packets is necessarily much higher.
hmmmm
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on the internet:
Large block processing costs are dominated by memory bandwidth, not software overheads.
that makes sense. the difficulty with fitting network i/o into my beautiful symphony of data locality is that the network is "necessary global" in some sense, and can't do multi-level queueing or w/e because you can't dictate to network resources how fast or slow to send data to you!
As Blackwell discusses [4], processing overhead on smaller packets is necessarily much higher.
hmmmm
vaguely interesting microsoft research paper https://research.cs.wisc.edu/areas/os/Seminar/schedules/papers/Deconstructing_Process_Isolation_final.pdf
A software isolated process is a collection of memory pages and a language safety mechanism that ensures that code in a process cannot access another process’s pages. A SIP replaces hardware memory protection with static verification of program safety.
DEEPLY suspicious to hear "replaces hardware memory protection" coming from microsoft lmao
They rely on verifying code’s safe behavior to prevent it from accessing another process’s (or the kernel’s) instructions or data.
LMAO
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vaguely interesting microsoft research paper https://research.cs.wisc.edu/areas/os/Seminar/schedules/papers/Deconstructing_Process_Isolation_final.pdf
A software isolated process is a collection of memory pages and a language safety mechanism that ensures that code in a process cannot access another process’s pages. A SIP replaces hardware memory protection with static verification of program safety.
DEEPLY suspicious to hear "replaces hardware memory protection" coming from microsoft lmao
They rely on verifying code’s safe behavior to prevent it from accessing another process’s (or the kernel’s) instructions or data.
LMAO
However, language safety offers important benefits not provided by hardware process protection, for example, detecting in-process errors such buffer overruns.
literally nothing in this paper makes any sense
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However, language safety offers important benefits not provided by hardware process protection, for example, detecting in-process errors such buffer overruns.
literally nothing in this paper makes any sense
just read a liedtke paper for the first time https://cgi.cse.unsw.edu.au/~cs9242/19/papers/Liedtke_93.pdf i think this guy is crazy for still trying to make ipc faster but this was actually cool to read. should have thought to learn that context first before hating on all the modern microkernel stuff =\
and he completely blew my fucking mind with this lmao:
5.3.5 Direct Process Switch
For a remote procedure call it is natural to switch the flow of control directly to the called thread, donating the current timeslice to it (as also LRPC does).
This is also the most efficient method, since it only involves changing stack pointer and address space.i don't think i would ever have thought of that myself and i can see why all-consuming focus on a hopeless task can actually get you places sometimes if you don't half-ass it
guy seems cool
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just read a liedtke paper for the first time https://cgi.cse.unsw.edu.au/~cs9242/19/papers/Liedtke_93.pdf i think this guy is crazy for still trying to make ipc faster but this was actually cool to read. should have thought to learn that context first before hating on all the modern microkernel stuff =\
and he completely blew my fucking mind with this lmao:
5.3.5 Direct Process Switch
For a remote procedure call it is natural to switch the flow of control directly to the called thread, donating the current timeslice to it (as also LRPC does).
This is also the most efficient method, since it only involves changing stack pointer and address space.i don't think i would ever have thought of that myself and i can see why all-consuming focus on a hopeless task can actually get you places sometimes if you don't half-ass it
guy seems cool
ipc performance is not only determined by the kernel algorithms, but also by the user/kernel interface. It is important to support typical usage and permit compilers to optimize code.
clearly we agree on the important things??? lol
Since there are no compilers (as far as we
know) which permit interfaces to be specified at register level and basic block sequences to be optimized by programmer supplied usage information, we had to use hand coding for the critical ipc related parts.see i love this guy lmao
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ipc performance is not only determined by the kernel algorithms, but also by the user/kernel interface. It is important to support typical usage and permit compilers to optimize code.
clearly we agree on the important things??? lol
Since there are no compilers (as far as we
know) which permit interfaces to be specified at register level and basic block sequences to be optimized by programmer supplied usage information, we had to use hand coding for the critical ipc related parts.see i love this guy lmao
oh amoeba is so cool lmao https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/54289.54291
6. THE FAST AMOEBA FILE SERVER
Like the Amoeba communication primitives, the Amoeba file server, called the bullet server was designed for extremely high performance.you're allowed to say stuff like this if you can back it up. let's see:
In particular, the decrease in the cost of disk and RAM memories over the past decade has allowed to use a radically different design than is used in UNIX and most other operating systems. In particular, we have abandoned the idea of storing files as a collection of fixed size disk blocks.
HELL yes i win again
All files are stored contiguously, both on the disk and in the server's (16 MB) main memory
16 mb lmao
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ipc performance is not only determined by the kernel algorithms, but also by the user/kernel interface. It is important to support typical usage and permit compilers to optimize code.
clearly we agree on the important things??? lol
Since there are no compilers (as far as we
know) which permit interfaces to be specified at register level and basic block sequences to be optimized by programmer supplied usage information, we had to use hand coding for the critical ipc related parts.see i love this guy lmao
@hipsterelectron I have no fucking clue what any of this means but this guy seems chill and I love these types of threads where you liveblog the nerd shit you're reading anyways
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oh amoeba is so cool lmao https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/54289.54291
6. THE FAST AMOEBA FILE SERVER
Like the Amoeba communication primitives, the Amoeba file server, called the bullet server was designed for extremely high performance.you're allowed to say stuff like this if you can back it up. let's see:
In particular, the decrease in the cost of disk and RAM memories over the past decade has allowed to use a radically different design than is used in UNIX and most other operating systems. In particular, we have abandoned the idea of storing files as a collection of fixed size disk blocks.
HELL yes i win again
All files are stored contiguously, both on the disk and in the server's (16 MB) main memory
16 mb lmao
The bullet server is an immutable file store, with as principal operations READ-FILE and CREATE-FILE.
this is how pants works and how my shared memory ipc worked, it's cool
(For garbage collection purposes there is also a DELETE-FILE operation.)
love this!
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oh amoeba is so cool lmao https://dl.acm.org/doi/abs/10.1145/54289.54291
6. THE FAST AMOEBA FILE SERVER
Like the Amoeba communication primitives, the Amoeba file server, called the bullet server was designed for extremely high performance.you're allowed to say stuff like this if you can back it up. let's see:
In particular, the decrease in the cost of disk and RAM memories over the past decade has allowed to use a radically different design than is used in UNIX and most other operating systems. In particular, we have abandoned the idea of storing files as a collection of fixed size disk blocks.
HELL yes i win again
All files are stored contiguously, both on the disk and in the server's (16 MB) main memory
16 mb lmao
@hipsterelectron 16.... Huh????? Whuh????? That's a typo that's gotta be a typo
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The bullet server is an immutable file store, with as principal operations READ-FILE and CREATE-FILE.
this is how pants works and how my shared memory ipc worked, it's cool
(For garbage collection purposes there is also a DELETE-FILE operation.)
love this!
the cache kernel is sick. closest thing to the macrokernel i've found so far https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/504390.504414 research sponsored by ARPA wish ARPA did more locality-centric memory motion stuff
