“can you recommend an alternative?” no. that’s why I’m so fucking angry.
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@davidgerard @t_var_s @tux0r @zzt I have no fond memories of IRC usability wise. The UX was already bad in the 2000s, and from the little contact I've had with it since, there has been no improvement.
@Kiloku @davidgerard @t_var_s @zzt IRCv3 is shaping up pretty nicely, everything else is an implementation detail.
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@davidgerard Weirdos of the World, Unite @matthew @zzt
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@zzt Are we not in the alternative right now?
It can be built but can we steer lemmings to use it?
@joegaffey @zzt maybe it starts by not comparing your users (the 95%+ of humanity that doesn't have an inexplicable boner for arcane computer nonsense) to lemmings
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@t_var_s @tux0r @zzt fsvo. distributed irc was shit in extremely tired ways, somehow combining the worst of decentralised with the worst of feudalised. it only "works" on a single well-run server, and we're back to the original problem.
i met my wife on irc, i have a fondness for it. it still doesn't answer the question.
@davidgerard @t_var_s @tux0r @zzt
<DrCuriosity> Yes.
<DrCuriosity> There are some things I don't miss.
* DrCuriosity has quit (*.net *.split) -
@joegaffey @zzt maybe it starts by not comparing your users (the 95%+ of humanity that doesn't have an inexplicable boner for arcane computer nonsense) to lemmings
@anhedonie @joegaffey @zzt if they can't telnet 6667 can they even really be allowed to use the computer
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@davidgerard @t_var_s @tux0r @zzt
<DrCuriosity> Yes.
<DrCuriosity> There are some things I don't miss.
* DrCuriosity has quit (*.net *.split)@DrCuriosity @t_var_s @tux0r @zzt
IRC's fragile spanning tree structure is the root problem but i don't know how we'd do cross-tree links without all sorts of weirdness
there's probably a solution involving terrible hand rolled cryptography that also doesn't solve the problem
(as with so many such problems)
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@DrCuriosity @t_var_s @tux0r @zzt
IRC's fragile spanning tree structure is the root problem but i don't know how we'd do cross-tree links without all sorts of weirdness
there's probably a solution involving terrible hand rolled cryptography that also doesn't solve the problem
(as with so many such problems)
@DrCuriosity @t_var_s @tux0r @zzt discord basically worked in ways irc didn't. if you don't understand that, you don't understand the question.
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@DrCuriosity @t_var_s @tux0r @zzt discord basically worked in ways irc didn't. if you don't understand that, you don't understand the question.
@davidgerard @DrCuriosity @t_var_s @zzt Webshit isn't a "way to work" though.
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@davidgerard @DrCuriosity @t_var_s @zzt Webshit isn't a "way to work" though.
@tux0r @DrCuriosity @t_var_s @zzt i'm not sure you understand the question at hand.
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@anhedonie @joegaffey @zzt if they can't telnet 6667 can they even really be allowed to use the computer
the key problem is that nobody wants to run a box
they want to use a service
that ends directly at discord
mastodon has the advantage that it actually successfully decentralised, and 75% of users can and do tell eugen to go whistle
it has the disadvantage that you can see the wires and plumbing and worst, the guys loudly telling you that the leaks and sparks and flames and outages are features akhully
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the key problem is that nobody wants to run a box
they want to use a service
that ends directly at discord
mastodon has the advantage that it actually successfully decentralised, and 75% of users can and do tell eugen to go whistle
it has the disadvantage that you can see the wires and plumbing and worst, the guys loudly telling you that the leaks and sparks and flames and outages are features akhully
@davidgerard @anhedonie @joegaffey @zzt and worse than just seeing the plumbing, there is no real model to buy a box and then call a plumber when you need the sewage flushed
You either give a company the right to all your personal info so they can shove ads in your eyes or you learn enough about admin to be able to run it with the help of a hosting service you pay a sub to. There's no Middle model that mostly just works with occasional maintenance like plumbing
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don’t come to this thread to argue. get angry and fucking do something about it. you feel trapped? good. welcome in. it fucking sucks in here.
@zzt
Do you know the best place to start making a difference?I'm super out of my depth but from today it seems like XMPP might be a viable way forward in terms of large-scale community platforms like discord? Does it lack for decent clients or... are we really so far behind that we don't even have a base to build upon?
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@zzt @arthfach @loke but how many communities have people who can do that? and how many of those people will stick around for the lifetime of that community to keep it running? I'd wager there are at least an order of magnitude more community builders than server runners even amongst Discord users.
really, it's a political question. *who* are you building a new system for?
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@zzt
Do you know the best place to start making a difference?I'm super out of my depth but from today it seems like XMPP might be a viable way forward in terms of large-scale community platforms like discord? Does it lack for decent clients or... are we really so far behind that we don't even have a base to build upon?
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@zzt
Do you know the best place to start making a difference?I'm super out of my depth but from today it seems like XMPP might be a viable way forward in terms of large-scale community platforms like discord? Does it lack for decent clients or... are we really so far behind that we don't even have a base to build upon?
@R3yScale @zzt XMPP got shot in the knee by google who cosied up next to it with federated Talk, got a whole bunch of people to mostly be on Talk, and then (intentionally) fucked the federation as their last stage of EEE
in today’s world its encryption is somewhat lacking (even OMEMO has some pains), a lot of the clients are lagging, and the protocol is decidedly Not Light(tm)
jabber-muc to try do what discord does? I laugh and laugh
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@R3yScale @zzt XMPP got shot in the knee by google who cosied up next to it with federated Talk, got a whole bunch of people to mostly be on Talk, and then (intentionally) fucked the federation as their last stage of EEE
in today’s world its encryption is somewhat lacking (even OMEMO has some pains), a lot of the clients are lagging, and the protocol is decidedly Not Light(tm)
jabber-muc to try do what discord does? I laugh and laugh
@R3yScale @zzt there are in fact some interesting historical precedents to this, too
MXit (an old chat service in ZA) ran on protocol-compressed xmpp (iirc they made it asn.1 encoded but I could be misremembering). WhatsApp killed them stone dead by being a more efficient system with a better store&forward
there’s a bunch of annoying hard parts to this problem, and few of the open systems are up to the challenge right now
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@davidgerard @R3yScale signal groups support 1000 participants, and video chats supposedly will do 75
an idea (no warranty on how good it is) is to use libsignal to implement a signal client with a concept of a signaling group chat, used to implement groups of groups and present them like how discord presents servers and channels. signal’s existing invite URL mechanism can be used both to invite users to the “server” (signaling group chat) and manage channel membership.
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@t_var_s @tux0r @zzt fsvo. distributed irc was shit in extremely tired ways, somehow combining the worst of decentralised with the worst of feudalised. it only "works" on a single well-run server, and we're back to the original problem.
i met my wife on irc, i have a fondness for it. it still doesn't answer the question.
I have fond memories from the 1990s of people on IRC telling me they were going to come murder me.
That's a big part of the problem, seems to me. Mom signs up for IRC, someone says something like that, Mom leaves IRC, calls the police, and tells all her friends about what happened. Nobody in her social circle will ever consider signing up for IRC after.
This kind of tech, whether IRC or insert your favorite here, can't spread if it can't guarantee the boughie white person experience. Entire shopping malls go bankrupt after an assault happens in front of them.
CC: @t_var_s@phpc.social @tux0r@layer8.space @zzt@mas.to
