For many people, the #Linux vs #Windows vs #Mac debate is a privilege — it assumes you can choose.
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@codemonkeymike You are generally right, of course, i also hate that Microsoft / Apple is doing this.
But there are still easy and not forbidden ways to install Win11 on older Machines and there is also a (kinda costy) Windows 10 LTSC version that is supported till 2032.
Also i have strong feelings against people who say that Linux makes an old system fast. That is often not the case, and after hearing this everywhere people keep posting frustated on our unix-board about their core2duo & co
@Zeddiria sure.. i always tell people there are limits.. BUT I have dual core celerons with 4 gigs of ram and a 16gig EMMC that can stream HD video on youtube.
That just isn't possible with other OSs. So sure, its not going to make a computer a rocketship, but WILL improve and make usable
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@codemonkeymike it's how it goes, even for Linux, that I think should be all around available for all old hardware. That is the point, to breathe new life in old hardware.
@candela i agree. However, for my case here.. these old 32 bit systems can barely keep up using a modern web browser with modern websites.. so they're just not very usable for daily driving for most people. Sadly
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@codemonkeymike I fully agree, but prefer FreeBSD when the computer is for my own use. Ubuntu desktop linux for other people because support is more available.
@grumpyoldtechie i have still never dove into BSD.. one of these days.. I get it on principal but don't understand it practically
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For many people, the #Linux vs #Windows vs #Mac debate is a privilege — it assumes you can choose. But working with the Computer Upcycle Project, I've seen the real choice is often Linux vs no computer at all.
~95% of donated computers are "too old" for Windows 11 or macOS. Linux installs on them anyway, adding 10+ years of life to machines #Microsoft and #Apple called trash.
This isn't Linux vs Windows. It's Linux vs e-waste.
@codemonkeymike I would go further and say it is Linux vs lobbyists and a monopoly
Many people don't want to use Linux or simply can't. One part does not want to learn new things and is trying to get along with Windows
Another side rely on programs that are only developed for Windows. Developers need to learn to rewrite programs for Linux, not because they don't know how to program but because they focus on range what currently implies to rely on a closed-source, cooperate driven operating system
The last side is influenced by lobbying, bought by Microsoft and earning money. Or is controlled by someone who is a great "investor" of Microsoft
Most times I have seen people rejecting Linux were reasoned with "too small" or "Not much supported". That "too small" part includes developers and end-users so just another discussion killer
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@numodular 8gen = intel i5 8. gen?
That is around 8-9 years old, how much RAM they have is very different, there were a wide range from 2 up to 16G common when they were new, they might be upgraded up to 64GB depending a bit, which is a lot more than the current entry-level class so "it depends"
But people here are advertising that linux is bloody fast on 15-20 year old System like fist gen i5 or even Core2Duo system which are the predecessor to i5, often with 1-2 GB of RAM
@Zeddiria Oh yeah, they're taking it too far... somewhat overt Capitalism at work.
Definitely appreciate the mitigating input.
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@Zeddiria sure.. i always tell people there are limits.. BUT I have dual core celerons with 4 gigs of ram and a 16gig EMMC that can stream HD video on youtube.
That just isn't possible with other OSs. So sure, its not going to make a computer a rocketship, but WILL improve and make usable
@codemonkeymike 4 gigs of RAM is 4x times more than the guys i mentioned usually have
I'm pretty orientated what old hardware can do, tbh, my current oldest system running a current os (Latest OpenBSD) is a Pentium III with 512MB Ram which i use mainly for reading old floppys. I also own some older systems like a Atari ST, a DEC Alpha or a 486 but i'm not using any of these currently.
I know there are gaming-rigs from the mid 2010s that are faster than new notebooks, unsupported by MS
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@codemonkeymike 4 gigs of RAM is 4x times more than the guys i mentioned usually have
I'm pretty orientated what old hardware can do, tbh, my current oldest system running a current os (Latest OpenBSD) is a Pentium III with 512MB Ram which i use mainly for reading old floppys. I also own some older systems like a Atari ST, a DEC Alpha or a 486 but i'm not using any of these currently.
I know there are gaming-rigs from the mid 2010s that are faster than new notebooks, unsupported by MS
@codemonkeymike But as a mod on a particular german unix-board i have strong feelings for hot takes like "With Linux/*BSD or so you can easily run two browsers with dozen of open tabs, a big Libreoffice-File, a video and some other stuff simoultanisly on two QHD displays with a 15 year old low-end-rig fast and good.
And tbh - cheap-ass hardware of that age was sometimes not only slow even for that age but also buggy (think 64 bitcpu 32bit UEFI) and often didn't age well also.
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@codemonkeymike But as a mod on a particular german unix-board i have strong feelings for hot takes like "With Linux/*BSD or so you can easily run two browsers with dozen of open tabs, a big Libreoffice-File, a video and some other stuff simoultanisly on two QHD displays with a 15 year old low-end-rig fast and good.
And tbh - cheap-ass hardware of that age was sometimes not only slow even for that age but also buggy (think 64 bitcpu 32bit UEFI) and often didn't age well also.
@codemonkeymike For a unspecific desktop-use-case my lowest recommendation would be at least an i5 4.th gen, 16 Gigs of RAM and a somewhat fast sata-ssd. A slightly-newer mid-size GPU might also be nice add on to relieve the cpu a bit.
Than extensive test should be done, like at least a 8h CPU & GPU Burnin-Test, a complete memtest86 runthrough and a look at the SMART values is always worth the time.
For a notebook i would go newer, depending a lot an the specific specs
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@codemonkeymike Sometimes I feel like I live in a bubble. I teach kids (12-20), and by far the most of them have never even heard of Linux. It's win or mac for them - there is no third option
Don't worry - young people mostly want two things: (1) the same as their fellows, (2) no hassle whatsoever.
Yet, they grow older and more individual - and that's the moment to show them the power of linux.
Because that's its real strength: you can **DO** something with it.
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@codemonkeymike Sometimes I feel like I live in a bubble. I teach kids (12-20), and by far the most of them have never even heard of Linux. It's win or mac for them - there is no third option
Don't worry - young people mostly want two things: (1) the same as their fellows, (2) no hassle whatsoever.
Yet, they grow older and more individual - and that's the moment to show them the power of linux.
Because that's its real strength: you can **DO** something with it.
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@codemonkeymike I would go further and say it is Linux vs lobbyists and a monopoly
Many people don't want to use Linux or simply can't. One part does not want to learn new things and is trying to get along with Windows
Another side rely on programs that are only developed for Windows. Developers need to learn to rewrite programs for Linux, not because they don't know how to program but because they focus on range what currently implies to rely on a closed-source, cooperate driven operating system
The last side is influenced by lobbying, bought by Microsoft and earning money. Or is controlled by someone who is a great "investor" of Microsoft
Most times I have seen people rejecting Linux were reasoned with "too small" or "Not much supported". That "too small" part includes developers and end-users so just another discussion killer
@cryptolatios curious what apps normal people need that aren't on Linux?
I've given away thousands of Linux machines, and only in a small handful of times did someone need an app that isn't on Linux. Seriously.
I'm sure it depends on your audience. My audience are normal low tech users that basically just need something with a web browser, file manager, maybe something like spotify of text editing.
Linux has that easily
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@codemonkeymike Typing this on an early 2006 macbook running LinuxMint 21 XFCE.
This macbook is so old that it does not run a full implementation UEFI and needed rEFIt to allow the computer to boot into Linux.
We have two 2008 macbooks also running the same OS that didn't need this workaround.
@the_wub oh nice!! I remember rEFI!
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@codemonkeymike In a just world Microsoft executives and shareholders would be punished for the e-waste they are responsible for.
@babor don't forget Apple.. i'd argue they're even worse
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@purrperl @thegardendude @codemonkeymike
NixOS doesn't require traditional scripting. Instead of writing imperative shell scripts to install packages or configure services, you define your entire system's desired state in a declarative configuration file using the Nix language.This means you declare what your system should look like (e.g., "I want Firefox and a web server enabled"), and NixOS handles the "how" automatically. This approach provides powerful benefits like reproducibility, atomic upgrades, and easy rollbacks, replacing ad-hoc scripts with a single, version-controllable source of truth.
There is no other way..
@zer0unplanned @thegardendude @codemonkeymike
I get the basic idea behind nixOS and its scripting language that handles configuration. I'm planning to replace the nix language with Ruby/Perl, since those languages are already known, and it would save people the trouble of learning the nix language, and would draw more people in to nixOS.
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@Elizafox true but that's few and far between in my experience. But yes this does happen.
@codemonkeymike if it's from before 2010 or so, and it has wifi, the likelihood of it working (properly) declines rapidly unfortunately.
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@cryptolatios curious what apps normal people need that aren't on Linux?
I've given away thousands of Linux machines, and only in a small handful of times did someone need an app that isn't on Linux. Seriously.
I'm sure it depends on your audience. My audience are normal low tech users that basically just need something with a web browser, file manager, maybe something like spotify of text editing.
Linux has that easily
@codemonkeymike @cryptolatios I don't consider myself a particularly high-end computer user but I do use one specific Microsoft program a lot (Access for databases) and have never found anything comparable on Linux. (I don't want to spend all my time fumbling with trying to program in SQL when all I want to do is store, sort, filter and retrieve data).
That said, that's the only thing that Windows does that Linux can't. Even some very specialised software I use has a Linux version available.
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@anatudor @vwestlife @codemonkeymike There is a whole generation of senior citizens who made the effort to achieve basic IT literacy around the early 2000s but have only ever used Windows. I find they are the most resistant to change, and will often cling stubbornly to old Windows installs packed with malware. In the end if you can get them to try something like an Xfce desktop with LibreOffice they will eventually feel right at home.
@kbm0 @anatudor @vwestlife I've showed 70 year olds nixbook (which is basically Linux mint cinnamon) and they just get it. Zero training needed
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@zer0unplanned @thegardendude @codemonkeymike
I get the basic idea behind nixOS and its scripting language that handles configuration. I'm planning to replace the nix language with Ruby/Perl, since those languages are already known, and it would save people the trouble of learning the nix language, and would draw more people in to nixOS.
@purrperl @zer0unplanned@friendica.rogueproject.org @thegardendude @codemonkeymike
Have a look at #guix, maybe just help increase the number of packages and services available there... Scheme is a pretty easy to learn language and widely taught in CS education.
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@codemonkeymike @cryptolatios I don't consider myself a particularly high-end computer user but I do use one specific Microsoft program a lot (Access for databases) and have never found anything comparable on Linux. (I don't want to spend all my time fumbling with trying to program in SQL when all I want to do is store, sort, filter and retrieve data).
That said, that's the only thing that Windows does that Linux can't. Even some very specialised software I use has a Linux version available.
@Daveosaurus @cryptolatios as always, use what works for you. If youre attached to Ms access, there ya go.
But I def know Linux has programs like that. Libreoffice Base being one of them. Have you tried that yet
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@codemonkeymike@fosstodon.org I've got a modern Linux on a Pentium III laptop. It's not great, but if I'm just wanting to write on it, or code on it, certainly a useful device. If the battery was good, it would basically be very nice option for me. Sadly, I get about 15 minutes out of the battery, and replacements are more than the machine is worth.
@JigmeDatse @codemonkeymike sometimes getting unofficial battery replacement can be worth the gamble. I got mine from AliExpress, Amazon or eBay. Did it 3 times over the years and they survived for over 2-3 years. The cost usually is around 20-30€
