my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
i've had people regret breaking up with me on bad terms because it made collaborating on software awkward and they couldn't get the same experience anywhere else. which is particularly fun to achieve because almost all of my work is utilitarian
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
@whitequark I don’t know that I’ve achieved so much, but there’s no way that I’m going to say that the problem-solving process I use is “indistinguishable from” using an LLM. Good lord, why are so many people becoming absolutely deranged for these things?
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
@whitequark my code has made people both horny and scared. I'm very proud of that
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
@whitequark ugh, it sucks to see mjg fall down this hole
this whole take ignores other massive ethical issues with llms (resource usage, forcing datacenters onto communities, fascists pushing this tech, ...) and reduces it to just one issue, which i feel is dishonest at best
i know i keep hammering this point, but we should also stand in solidarity with other affected professions, like writers and artists, in completely banning this technology as a whole
this take also completely ignores many of the social aspects of software development
i want a more human world, and this genai bullshit goes against that -
i've had people regret breaking up with me on bad terms because it made collaborating on software awkward and they couldn't get the same experience anywhere else. which is particularly fun to achieve because almost all of my work is utilitarian
@whitequark I was going to say you're being unfair to mjg59 but I recently showed code I wrote to someone and they said "that's a magnificent hack and I hate it" and that was exactly the reaction I had hoped for, and then we merged that code because it solved the problem.
They say creativity flourishes best under constraints and utilitarian code is nothing but fighting constraints.
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@whitequark I was going to say you're being unfair to mjg59 but I recently showed code I wrote to someone and they said "that's a magnificent hack and I hate it" and that was exactly the reaction I had hoped for, and then we merged that code because it solved the problem.
They say creativity flourishes best under constraints and utilitarian code is nothing but fighting constraints.
@whitequark (in "magnificent hack", I mean hack as in kludge, not hack as in interesting stunt)
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@whitequark I was going to say you're being unfair to mjg59 but I recently showed code I wrote to someone and they said "that's a magnificent hack and I hate it" and that was exactly the reaction I had hoped for, and then we merged that code because it solved the problem.
They say creativity flourishes best under constraints and utilitarian code is nothing but fighting constraints.
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@whitequark ugh, it sucks to see mjg fall down this hole
this whole take ignores other massive ethical issues with llms (resource usage, forcing datacenters onto communities, fascists pushing this tech, ...) and reduces it to just one issue, which i feel is dishonest at best
i know i keep hammering this point, but we should also stand in solidarity with other affected professions, like writers and artists, in completely banning this technology as a whole
this take also completely ignores many of the social aspects of software development
i want a more human world, and this genai bullshit goes against that@lumi@snug.moe @whitequark@social.treehouse.systems whos this person ?
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@lumi@snug.moe @whitequark@social.treehouse.systems whos this person ?
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
@whitequark It's hard for me to read what Matthew has written without considering it to be ragebait, trolling or similar. It could be more innocent, someone who hasn't yet reflected and absorbed the effect their actions have on the world. Without reaching that stage it's harder to understand some of the (my, probably your) objections to how LLMs are used. I've been through it, all of it, in the non-software world of pirate radio. I've shown the "wrong" people how to build transmitters, had them be a massive pain in the backside for years. I didn't know that they made so many people very happy with their crazy antics. He died some years ago. I went to his funeral. I have never seen so many people at a funeral. We almost ran out of standing room. I had to rethink my life a bit. I quit doing the illegal stuff back in the 90s when I was feeling terrible about unleashing "the secrets" to such a muppet. i'm now glad I made that mistake, even though he was undoubtedly an absolute nightmare for the regulatory authorities. Because of the love. I saw the love. From something algorithmic, a circuit, bits of wire and solder etc. A whole culture, lives changed.
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
@whitequark I couldn't read his post without considering the "Security at Nvidia" line in his Bio.
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
@whitequark I mean what mjg says i s very true for mjg's code. Thankfully most people aren't mjg
He clearly only focuses on the "technical merit" of the code not on the social and ecological impact of the LLM that generated it.As it stands today it's utterly unethical however "good" the code turns out to be on grounds of water and energy waste alone. <-- see one aspect only
- The code quality is not good enough
- The resource usage is abysmal
- The dumbing down effect on the users is verified.
Maybe that's not the "tech to set us free"
@mjg59 that's your answer. Your take stinks.
Edit: it's an understandable shitty position considering that the "AI" goldrush shuffelmaker NV is your current employer.
cuius enim panem manduco, carmina canto
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
@whitequark Holy shit, I didn't expect something great from mjg given how he's been about Secure Boot but this is *bad* like calling himself a tool bad. -
my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
> The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Frankly speaking, we can tell. It’s gratingly obvious when a code is written to just do something without any attempt to tell a story.
As an aside, the experience that contributed the most to quality of my work was an attempt to help edit a my little pony fanfic.
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> The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Frankly speaking, we can tell. It’s gratingly obvious when a code is written to just do something without any attempt to tell a story.
As an aside, the experience that contributed the most to quality of my work was an attempt to help edit a my little pony fanfic.
@slotos i gotta hear the mlp story!
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
"Skill without imagination is craftsmanship and gives us many useful objects such as wickerwork picnic baskets."
Tom Stoppard, via Civilization VI.
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
@whitequark what kind of code breaks relationships
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@whitequark what kind of code breaks relationships
@kubukoz it wasn't a direct cause but it was very much a critical part
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
@whitequark It's endlessly funny to me that one of the ~three arguments every booster pulls out eventually is "well, I don't know about you, but *I* don't have a rich inner world"
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my code has started (and ended) romantic relationships, changed how people view the world around them, and brought people bits of otherwise unachievable joy
it is embarrassing to tell on yourself that you can't do the same, but it is downright ignorant to claim it cannot or shouldn't be done at all
Matthew Garrett (@mjg59@nondeterministic.computer)
When I write code I am turning a creative idea into a mechanical embodiment of that idea. I am not creating beauty. Every line of code I write is a copy of another line of code I've read somewhere before, lightly modified to meet my needs. My code is not intended to evoke emotion. It does not change people think about the world. The idea→code pipeline in my head is not obviously distinguishable from the prompt->code process in an LLM
Nondeterministic Computer (nondeterministic.computer)
@whitequark (apologies for the long reply from a stranger, just…I’m so with you here)
Their argument is also…just straight up false.
Like, it’s been demonstrated time and time again that _linguistic_ ability is tied much more closely to “programming” ability than mathematic ability is.
This is _why_ it’s interesting that LLMs can write any code _at all_. Their ability to write code is an _emergent property_ of the model, likely stemming from the fact that computer languages are, at their core, fundamentally the same as human language.
….but as we all keep saying, writing code isn’t the hard part. Just like writing the sentences of a novel isn’t the hard part.
Neither code nor prose changes people’s lives because of the mechanisms we lay on the page or in the editor, and it’s here that your OP is sort of right. Sort of.
The magic of software comes from the unique and interesting ways those mechanisms interact. LLMs do not exhibit this kind of thinking or creativity because they _don’t think_. The day we get a deterministic compiler from natural language to machine code will be a _huge_ win for society. It’s just also no where close to being here in any sort of sustainable way.
