something i’ve been noticing more and more, and which i am feeling increasingly uneasy about, is how neurodivergent folks roughly on the left routinely assign virtue to neurodivergence and especially autism.
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@jepyang
The way I see it, assigning virtue to something mainstream society oppresses (like neurodiversity, autism, but also queerness) it like cool and fun and all and I do it all the time. It's a way to fight stigma. But like you say, and I agree, it can be a trap. Just because someone is different/marginalised doesn't mean they're (me included) automatically better than whatever the oppressive norms are.Which would also be a huge burden and no one wants that
It's like... it depends on context. There's a lot of nuance here. Celebrating diversity per se is cool and good and important imo, but that also includes celebrating those people who are "normal" and being cool about it. I love my token straight friend! (I don't know if I have any neurotypical friends lol)
I guess what I'm trying to say is, we want rights, dignity, freedom and cookies for everyone, not to reverse the polarity on what is deemed "good" or "bad". (And yes, I know that prejudice in the absence of power is no where near as dangerous as actual discrimination, but it's still unpleasant and can lead to smallmindedness).
@Aurin_the_classtraitor 100% alllll of this!!! especially since i frequently see this kind of thing from people who *do* intersect with mainstream power structures in one way or another: white people, cishet people, cis men, etc.
i don’t usually mind the jokes about this kinda stuff but like any joke of that nature, there is a (fuzzy and ever-shifting) line where it gets uncomfortable real quick.
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something i’ve been noticing more and more, and which i am feeling increasingly uneasy about, is how neurodivergent folks roughly on the left routinely assign virtue to neurodivergence and especially autism.
@jepyang having lots of Thoughts on this one, good thing they are too complex for me to put into words.
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your autism does not guarantee you have good politics
@jepyang imo, with plenty of Autistic young folk around me (like, pre-teens and younger) I'm much more concerned over them getting sucked into the right wing gobbledygook than I am for the neurotypicals. Mostly because they're in general, much more rigid when they absorb something as a fact and less likely to re-examine that belief, and they're more naive of other people being truthful to them. I worry this makes them easier targets, and that they might go totally overboard easier
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@jepyang having lots of Thoughts on this one, good thing they are too complex for me to put into words.
@theynege if the words sort themselves out at any point, definitely curious to hear those Thoughts.
but yeah, it is complex.
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@jepyang See also: Elon Musk.
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@jepyang having lots of Thoughts on this one, good thing they are too complex for me to put into words.
@jepyang it's just one of many characteristics that some people seem to think absolves them. it may be an explanation but it's not a justification. it could be a correlation but not a causation. it's more about blame on the undefined masses than actual principles.
and saying neurotypical people aren't capable of having the same values is basically ableist in the same way as calling bad people a mental illness term. neurodivergences are (largely) inherent conditions but nobody is inherently more moral. that is a belief of fascism.
for me it's more about explaining to myself why it is that other people aren't seeing what I'm seeing so I have a starting point in how I can share my perspective in a way that will be received by them. it can also be used to help me decide if developing mutual understanding in a social sense would be worth my time. I have to make that assessment on other neurodivergent people as well.
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something i’ve been noticing more and more, and which i am feeling increasingly uneasy about, is how neurodivergent folks roughly on the left routinely assign virtue to neurodivergence and especially autism.
@jepyang omg thank you for saying this. I'm not autistic and I don't have ADHD so I feel like everything that's ascribed to neurotypicals is true of me and that's always supposed to be a bad thing.
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@jepyang just cause you have strong feelings about justice doesn't mean you're actually right about the things you feel strongly about.
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@jepyang It also makes neurotypical morally wrong, either implicitly or explictly. Which is bad to begin with and worse when people equate not having autism with being neurotypical.
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@jepyang it's just one of many characteristics that some people seem to think absolves them. it may be an explanation but it's not a justification. it could be a correlation but not a causation. it's more about blame on the undefined masses than actual principles.
and saying neurotypical people aren't capable of having the same values is basically ableist in the same way as calling bad people a mental illness term. neurodivergences are (largely) inherent conditions but nobody is inherently more moral. that is a belief of fascism.
for me it's more about explaining to myself why it is that other people aren't seeing what I'm seeing so I have a starting point in how I can share my perspective in a way that will be received by them. it can also be used to help me decide if developing mutual understanding in a social sense would be worth my time. I have to make that assessment on other neurodivergent people as well.
@jepyang white ND folks need to keep that in check especially, just like white queer people. sometimes ND folks use that as an excuse not to learn how to observe systemic racism and microaggressions and to absolve themselves of responsibility for observing and changing their own behaviour.
there is definitely a need to accommodate a wide range of social styles and approaches to political action on the left. we can't all go to in-person rallies, but they can be effective so we should still hold them. people shouldn't be accused of not contributing to the cause if they can't show up. I can't do door-to-door canvassing or make phone calls to my representatives without a massive mental struggle, but that doesn't mean I need to cry about people doing that.
and we all need to keep in check on what things merely irritate us personally instead of being an impediment to the cause.
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@Aurin_the_classtraitor 100% alllll of this!!! especially since i frequently see this kind of thing from people who *do* intersect with mainstream power structures in one way or another: white people, cishet people, cis men, etc.
i don’t usually mind the jokes about this kinda stuff but like any joke of that nature, there is a (fuzzy and ever-shifting) line where it gets uncomfortable real quick.
@jepyang @Aurin_the_classtraitor
So very much this. queer/crip/ND people are not inherently better (or worse) than anyone else. Most of us would just like to get on with living fully without bullshit.
Feels like this over-valorisation of "being better cos queer/crip/ND" becomes pink or crip washing when it suits us and mainstream world but is also dangerous cos the mainstream world CAN (and is likely to) turn on us as we are seeing against trans (typoed that as trains lolz) folk right now.
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@jepyang @Aurin_the_classtraitor
So very much this. queer/crip/ND people are not inherently better (or worse) than anyone else. Most of us would just like to get on with living fully without bullshit.
Feels like this over-valorisation of "being better cos queer/crip/ND" becomes pink or crip washing when it suits us and mainstream world but is also dangerous cos the mainstream world CAN (and is likely to) turn on us as we are seeing against trans (typoed that as trains lolz) folk right now.
@jepyang @Aurin_the_classtraitor
Also thinking about Rev Jesse Jackson, and how he didn't 'just' talk race rights and black liberation, he understood coalition building and class politics (as so much disadvantage boils down to marginalised group being more likely to be pushed into a lower social and therefore financial class).
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like “neurotypicals hate when i [do leftist thing], but yknow i got that justice hypersensitivity”
@jepyang often by the same damn people who would consider "making a pop science meme my personality" to be explicitly "a neurotypical thing to do"
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@jepyang white ND folks need to keep that in check especially, just like white queer people. sometimes ND folks use that as an excuse not to learn how to observe systemic racism and microaggressions and to absolve themselves of responsibility for observing and changing their own behaviour.
there is definitely a need to accommodate a wide range of social styles and approaches to political action on the left. we can't all go to in-person rallies, but they can be effective so we should still hold them. people shouldn't be accused of not contributing to the cause if they can't show up. I can't do door-to-door canvassing or make phone calls to my representatives without a massive mental struggle, but that doesn't mean I need to cry about people doing that.
and we all need to keep in check on what things merely irritate us personally instead of being an impediment to the cause.
@jepyang (sorry, more thoughts)
for some neurodivergent conditions, one trait is that we can get more focused/passionate on particular issues at the expense of day-to-day functioning. this may make it look like people who can focus on their day-to-day functioning don't care about issues external to themselves. they are immersed in their own lives. but their own lives include caring for family members or forming friendships in social settings or volunteering in the general community or other things that give them opportunities to engage with people and communicate their values in a way that influences and impacts others. they may not have the same inclination or amount of time to commit to reading theory or watching video essays or engaging in online discourse that reaches more people, but even little hints dropped on them in their regular lives can spread ideas and instill values. it doesn't make them less "intelligent" or less valuable. the "ugh, have you even read [ideologue], bro??" smugness is just so ineffective at really communicating.
we can't mix up hyperfocus or special interest with virtue.
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your autism does not guarantee you have good politics
@jepyang "Justice sensitivity" is, I believe, a real thing. However, "justice" is not an objective truth, nor an ahistorical one.
For some people, "justice" means rigid social hierarchies and gender roles.
And honestly, it's just painfully obvious that a lot of neurodivergent people are fascists. 4chan, Gamergate, etc., clearly had a lot of autistic people involved.
Neurodivergence does not make someone a better or a worse person.
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@jepyang See also: Elon Musk.
Absolutely. It really pisses me off that he used it as an excuse for his bad behavior, too. I'm autistic and I don't do that shit. Maybe he should take a minute to reevaluate instead of dragging public perception of neurodivergence through the mud. We already get enough of that with the constant mentions in the news of whether such-and-such awful person had "mental health issues" or was neurodivergent.
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Absolutely. It really pisses me off that he used it as an excuse for his bad behavior, too. I'm autistic and I don't do that shit. Maybe he should take a minute to reevaluate instead of dragging public perception of neurodivergence through the mud. We already get enough of that with the constant mentions in the news of whether such-and-such awful person had "mental health issues" or was neurodivergent.
@ainmosni @jepyang I think that a lot of the nonsense talk about autism causing a person to automatically be virtuous is in fact a reaction to the nonsense talk about autism causing a person to automatically be inferior or broken. The truth is, we are human beings, like everybody else; we just do it a different way from them.
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your autism does not guarantee you have good politics
@jepyang Alternatively, your lack of autism does not make you better or superior in opinion, political or NIGH!
Actually a SYMPTOM OF THE 'tism is sometimes a STRICT code of justice.SO SOME AUTISTIC FOLK ARE QUITE LITERALLY MORALLY SUPERIOR THAN A MAJORITY OF YOU MOUTH BREATHING NORMIES!
Alright, I'm cutting myself off for today.
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@jepyang "Justice sensitivity" is, I believe, a real thing. However, "justice" is not an objective truth, nor an ahistorical one.
For some people, "justice" means rigid social hierarchies and gender roles.
And honestly, it's just painfully obvious that a lot of neurodivergent people are fascists. 4chan, Gamergate, etc., clearly had a lot of autistic people involved.
Neurodivergence does not make someone a better or a worse person.
@foolishowl honestly i kinda go back and forth on “justice sensitivity”. i mean, i think it’s “real” in the sense that is is observable, many autistic/neurodivergent people do seem to share this trait. but otoh, it also often feels less like an inherent trait of autism and more like one way that more generalized traits tend to manifest. (1/2)
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@foolishowl honestly i kinda go back and forth on “justice sensitivity”. i mean, i think it’s “real” in the sense that is is observable, many autistic/neurodivergent people do seem to share this trait. but otoh, it also often feels less like an inherent trait of autism and more like one way that more generalized traits tend to manifest. (1/2)
like, if you take rigid thinking and love of rules, combine it with complex trauma from being part of an oppressed class (and in particular an oppressed class that often goes undiagnosed for decades), and sprinkle in some neurodivergent emotional dysregulation, it’s not hard to imagine the result is gonna look like “having an outsized reaction when people are mistreated in ways that aren’t usually or shouldn’t be allowed.” (2/2)
