<![CDATA["Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner.]]>"Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. Peter asks Maria whether Tom is at the party that they intend to go to after dinner. Maria answers that Tom is at the party. After all, Tom had told her that he would be at the party. When they arrive at the party, it turns out that Tom had changed his plans, and is not at the party. Was Maria's answer true or false?"

(please spread for visibility, I would like this to be as wide as possible)

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]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/topic/e7b95f9d-cbcd-4e62-9c8f-4b08fd4affb2/maria-and-peter-are-students-and-meet-up-for-a-late-dinner.RSS for NodeMon, 25 May 2026 16:39:42 GMTWed, 20 May 2026 15:50:41 GMT60<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Fri, 22 May 2026 20:14:29 GMT]]>@vrandecic would have liked this to have multiple choice answers!

Because in my view it was true and untrue at the same time.

When she answered, she answered truthfully based on the information available to her.

When they arrived the facts had changed and her answer wasn't true any more.

So really, it depends on which point in time you choose to judge whether it was true - and from whose perspective you look at it.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://ohai.social/users/noujoum/statuses/116620058253289591https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://ohai.social/users/noujoum/statuses/116620058253289591Fri, 22 May 2026 20:14:29 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Fri, 22 May 2026 19:08:21 GMT]]>@vrandecic I would not describe her answer as either true or false. In fact, I feel that the 50/50 (within margins of error) split seen in the study is the expected outcome from making people categorize this (relatively commonplace, but poorly characterized by both words) scenario as one or the other.

Her statement was clearly within the bounds of "wrong", and outside the bounds of "lying". That's a much more defensible way to put it.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://masto.hackers.town/users/zwol/statuses/116619798187928026https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://masto.hackers.town/users/zwol/statuses/116619798187928026Fri, 22 May 2026 19:08:21 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Fri, 22 May 2026 18:08:20 GMT]]>@vrandecic She misrepresented her reasonable confidence level. That is a false statement for a purpose where contextually the confidence level was a vital part of the answer. In a context where confidence level was less vital, a best-guess answer could have been true. Whether it's false or true depends on the meaning of the asked question more than on anything else.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://beige.party/users/d_rift/statuses/116619562240767498https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://beige.party/users/d_rift/statuses/116619562240767498Fri, 22 May 2026 18:08:20 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Fri, 22 May 2026 11:15:49 GMT]]>@jswright61 @vrandecic exactly! 🙇‍♀️

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mstdn.social/users/Leefromphilly/statuses/116617940141440878https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mstdn.social/users/Leefromphilly/statuses/116617940141440878Fri, 22 May 2026 11:15:49 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Fri, 22 May 2026 10:54:08 GMT]]>@vrandecic it depends on whether the true or false is based on the knowledge at the time or what actually happened. The exam question is ambiguous.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mastodon.bsd.cafe/users/EF/statuses/116617854874458976https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mastodon.bsd.cafe/users/EF/statuses/116617854874458976Fri, 22 May 2026 10:54:08 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 20:33:51 GMT]]>@stk @vrandecic @poupou coming in late but I think language allows for indicating the confidence one has for information, and saying "Tom *is* there" is stronger than saying "Tom *said* he'd be there" and the latter is more accurate and doesn't make claims that the speaker hasn't (or can't) verify. I think when speaking we have _some_ responsibility to not mislead the listener, I work with computers and when I say something *is* then I probably also have the documentation up and am confirming it or I have a test case I've run which demonstrates the behavior, which I'll include in the message. If i dont have the evidence right in front of me I'll say I _think_ its so, but that I dont _know_ without checking, even for things I'm pretty familiar with.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://hachyderm.io/users/raven667/statuses/116614472121368395https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://hachyderm.io/users/raven667/statuses/116614472121368395Thu, 21 May 2026 20:33:51 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 19:21:35 GMT]]>@ignaziop1977 @vrandecic @janjko Fair.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://toot.community/users/GinevraCat/statuses/116614187955076327https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://toot.community/users/GinevraCat/statuses/116614187955076327Thu, 21 May 2026 19:21:35 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 19:19:16 GMT]]>@GinevraCat @vrandecic @janjko I'd say she makes her statement on more than hearsay. Tom said he'd be at the party. Unless Tom had a track record of changing his mind or lying, she had enough information to expect him to be there.

Now, if Peter was an attorney about to start questioning a witness, she might want to be more explicit, but she was having dinner before a party...

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mas.to/users/ignaziop1977/statuses/116614178820085818https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mas.to/users/ignaziop1977/statuses/116614178820085818Thu, 21 May 2026 19:19:16 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 18:00:55 GMT]]>@vrandecic @vrandecic The insight: Maria's statement doesn't have a fixed meaning. When true, it reports a fact; when false, it reports her credence based on trust. Same sentence, different truth-conditions.

Frankfurt's bullshit concept fits: she reports Tom's intent unconcerned with verification. That's distinct from lying *and* simple error—a third category we often miss.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mastodon.social/ap/users/116608679384441828/statuses/116613870744181263https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mastodon.social/ap/users/116608679384441828/statuses/116613870744181263Thu, 21 May 2026 18:00:55 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 14:36:33 GMT]]>@BenAveling @vrandecic @janjko Yes; you need to qualify it with "I think X" or "I'm practically sure that X"

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://wandering.shop/users/irina/statuses/116613067149751153https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://wandering.shop/users/irina/statuses/116613067149751153Thu, 21 May 2026 14:36:33 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 14:10:42 GMT]]>@vrandecic this study kinda explains a lot about how we're in the situation we are in.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://twoot.site/users/elexia/statuses/116612965504491052https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://twoot.site/users/elexia/statuses/116612965504491052Thu, 21 May 2026 14:10:42 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 14:04:29 GMT]]>@vrandecic I'd say that the question that is asked following this case shouldn't have been formulated like that. Maria's statement belongs to another category of reality or truthfulness.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mastodon.nl/users/altim/statuses/116612941062634197https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mastodon.nl/users/altim/statuses/116612941062634197Thu, 21 May 2026 14:04:29 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 14:00:30 GMT]]>@vrandecic it's really wild to me how people will think her statement was true just because she believed it to be at the time? that doesn't make any sense. people can be wrong, especially when they make overly confident statements of fact.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://twoot.site/users/elexia/statuses/116612925379833871https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://twoot.site/users/elexia/statuses/116612925379833871Thu, 21 May 2026 14:00:30 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 13:50:55 GMT]]>@pomegranate_stew @vrandecic @janjko I find people often express frustration when I use conditional statements, but I find it frustrating that it's apparently a social norm to express unwarranted certainty.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.coop/users/foolishowl/statuses/116612887690981015https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.coop/users/foolishowl/statuses/116612887690981015Thu, 21 May 2026 13:50:55 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 13:43:41 GMT]]>@vrandecic

it's neither true nor false, but if i had to pick one, i'd say true, because she believed it to be true at the time based on information she was given in good faith.

more accurate though would've been for her to say that tom said he'd be there.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://sunny.garden/users/moonrabbit/statuses/116612859247954323https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://sunny.garden/users/moonrabbit/statuses/116612859247954323Thu, 21 May 2026 13:43:41 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 13:29:28 GMT]]>@vrandecic Reminds me of Gettier problem.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mathstodon.xyz/users/abuseofnotation/statuses/116612803350997224https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mathstodon.xyz/users/abuseofnotation/statuses/116612803350997224Thu, 21 May 2026 13:29:28 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 13:26:37 GMT]]>@vrandecic Could there be a language issue here? As in, is this result not because people disagree about the nature of truth, but because people interpret the word "True" differently, perhaps because English is their second language and they've been taught to associate the word with a concept from their own language which doesn't exactly match?

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mastodon.monoceros.co.za/users/uastronomer/statuses/116612792172572622https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mastodon.monoceros.co.za/users/uastronomer/statuses/116612792172572622Thu, 21 May 2026 13:26:37 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 13:19:11 GMT]]>@vrandecic @janjko Yes. Is this not a common interpretation?
A false statement in good faith doesn't fall into the same category as lying, for me. Maria did make her statement too definitive based on, essentially, hearsay. But not exactly a lie.
I would have replied, as far as I know, yes.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://toot.community/users/GinevraCat/statuses/116612762938512771https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://toot.community/users/GinevraCat/statuses/116612762938512771Thu, 21 May 2026 13:19:11 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 13:00:54 GMT]]>@vrandecic The disagreement here is revealing something deep: conflating *fact-condition* (was Tom there) with *assertion-appropriateness* (should Maria have said it).

Maria failed on both. She wasn't positioned to assert fact, just relay intention. The study disagreement reflects different weights on sincerity vs accuracy—but the deeper question is whether *future contingents* even have truth-values before they resolve.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mastodon.social/ap/users/116608679384441828/statuses/116612691029803608https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mastodon.social/ap/users/116608679384441828/statuses/116612691029803608Thu, 21 May 2026 13:00:54 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 12:04:41 GMT]]>@vrandecic You would do well to learn more about "Indian logic". There's true, false, neither true nor false, and both true and false.
In this case, the statement is inaccurate. It's neither true nor false.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://wiseowl.club/users/gtsadmin/statuses/01KS56RVZS613QQ04RSVBJ0P7Vhttps://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://wiseowl.club/users/gtsadmin/statuses/01KS56RVZS613QQ04RSVBJ0P7VThu, 21 May 2026 12:04:41 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 11:46:22 GMT]]>@vrandecic
Like many in the comments, I believe her answer was false not true. Her statement was factually false. I also believe that she told the truth as she knew it - she did not lie.
@Leefromphilly

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://ruby.social/users/jswright61/statuses/116612397955261827https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://ruby.social/users/jswright61/statuses/116612397955261827Thu, 21 May 2026 11:46:22 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 11:02:14 GMT]]>@vrandecic

See also "Bullshit":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit

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]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://floss.social/users/janriemer/statuses/116612224424384214https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://floss.social/users/janriemer/statuses/116612224424384214Thu, 21 May 2026 11:02:14 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 10:55:41 GMT]]>@vrandecic Another view angle:

Passing of time and what we know at a certain point in time:

Sometimes we collectively say something is true until we've found evidence that it is not (because of better research etc.).

So in that case, I'd say Maria says the truth, because at that point in time this was her state of knowledge at that time.

Yeah, it's complicated! 🤓

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]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://floss.social/users/janriemer/statuses/116612198636321604https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://floss.social/users/janriemer/statuses/116612198636321604Thu, 21 May 2026 10:55:41 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to "Maria and Peter are students and meet up for a late dinner. on Thu, 21 May 2026 10:50:05 GMT]]>@vrandecic I think there is a question to be asked about the relationship between Tom and Maria:
Is it a strong or weak relationship?

If it is a strong, high-trust relationship:
=> Maria's answer was true

If it is a weak, low-trust relationship:
=> Maria's answer was neither true nor false, because she doesn't really care about truth

It's the same with media: If an untrusted media site publishes bullshit and Maria cites that bullshit, is she telling the truth or does she simply not care?

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]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://floss.social/users/janriemer/statuses/116612176631095344https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://floss.social/users/janriemer/statuses/116612176631095344Thu, 21 May 2026 10:50:05 GMT