<![CDATA[semiconductor folks!]]>semiconductor folks! I've seen a lot of talking heads repeat the claim that "a helium shortage is bad for chip production", never substantiated with useful information. do any of you know:

  • what is helium actually used in the processes?
  • which specific processes would be affected?
  • how much helium (ballpark) is needed per year?
  • where, if anywhere, a closed cycle is used?
  • what happened to the strategic helium reserve in the US?
]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/topic/6c692ebc-acb0-4493-99d3-05832833db46/semiconductor-folksRSS for NodeWed, 08 Apr 2026 22:20:47 GMTFri, 03 Apr 2026 13:51:10 GMT60<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:55:53 GMT]]>@whitequark@social.treehouse.systems I think it varies a lot, I can look up our uni’s rie system that uses He bsg

the other thing with bsg systems is some of them don’t necessarily need He, it’s just optimal given thermal conductivity and inertness. Most bsg systems I know about can also use Ar or N2, but the thermal conductivity probably precludes their use in intense ion milling and stuff.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://hexokina.se/notes/akmlbjgrafri0065https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://hexokina.se/notes/akmlbjgrafri0065Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:55:53 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:51:43 GMT]]>@whitequark I think it may be used in some plasma etch processes. Dry etching is basically sorcery

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://tacobelllabs.net/users/psistarpsiii/statuses/116341335912368837https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://tacobelllabs.net/users/psistarpsiii/statuses/116341335912368837Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:51:43 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:45:29 GMT]]>@whitequark@social.treehouse.systems @azonenberg@ioc.exchange that’s true,

I know people in other labs with UHV stuff who have had to install He recycling systems and stuff over the past couple years to deal with the shortage but they might have some niche use for lots of He they never told me about, I was just thinking of “things that use He”

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://hexokina.se/notes/akmky5ayafri0063https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://hexokina.se/notes/akmky5ayafri0063Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:45:29 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:43:47 GMT]]>@xeno oh no research definitely counts

do you know how much helium is used as a carrier gas? cooling in ESC/BSG systems seems to be "few sccm" which is not a geopolitically relevant amount, neither is leak checking

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/whitequark/statuses/116341304685128554https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/whitequark/statuses/116341304685128554Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:43:47 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:42:28 GMT]]>@whitequark@social.treehouse.systems oh nope sorry I didn’t parse “semiconductor folks” as people in the industry

I have been doing small-scale semiconductor research work and I’ve learned from some actual semiconductor people but I am def not one of them

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://hexokina.se/notes/akmku9z0afri0062https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://hexokina.se/notes/akmku9z0afri0062Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:42:28 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:42:20 GMT]]>@xeno @whitequark i would expect most leaks to be after maintenance outages then the tool runs leak free for a comparatively long time

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://ioc.exchange/users/azonenberg/statuses/116341298989524038https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://ioc.exchange/users/azonenberg/statuses/116341298989524038Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:42:20 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:42:16 GMT]]>@whitequark@social.treehouse.systems oh nope sorry I didn’t parse “semiconductor folks” as people in the industry

I have been doing smal-scale semiconductor research work and I’ve learned from some actual semiconductor people but I am def not one of them

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://hexokina.se/notes/akmku11dafri0061https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://hexokina.se/notes/akmku11dafri0061Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:42:16 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:41:43 GMT]]>@xeno @whitequark yeah but leak detection can't be a high volume use compared to actual production work. Like how often do tools develop leaks if you're not actively working on them?

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://ioc.exchange/users/azonenberg/statuses/116341296547114521https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://ioc.exchange/users/azonenberg/statuses/116341296547114521Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:41:43 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:39:17 GMT]]>@xeno do you work in the industry?

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/whitequark/statuses/116341287005568404https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/whitequark/statuses/116341287005568404Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:39:17 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:38:05 GMT]]>@whitequark@social.treehouse.systems it’s used for loads of things, as a carrier gas, for cooling, and the main way to find leaks in an ultra high vacuum system (of which fabs have loads) is by spraying helium around the outside and looking for helium that makes it inside

there’s probably plenty of other uses I’m just ignorant of

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://hexokina.se/notes/akmkon4yafri005rhttps://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://hexokina.se/notes/akmkon4yafri005rFri, 03 Apr 2026 14:38:05 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:33:25 GMT]]>@whitequark I think helium makes the bubbles smaller giving the chips a more premium mouthfeel.]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://fedi.tesaguri.club/objects/2ab93438-7e47-4e32-8a78-fda080bccc13https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://fedi.tesaguri.club/objects/2ab93438-7e47-4e32-8a78-fda080bccc13Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:33:25 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:31:58 GMT]]>@whitequark@social.treehouse.systems @riley@toot.cat @Hemera@meow.social I think some lasers also use helium, either to get the right frequency or temperature. Might be required to etch the gates at the required size?

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://transfem.social/notes/akmkgrv6hi8i0001https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://transfem.social/notes/akmkgrv6hi8i0001Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:31:58 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:28:26 GMT]]>@whitequark it has to be AI generated at this point, you’d think there would be some interview somewhere saying it but I’ve never found one. TSMC’s own periodic sustainability reports are in dollars, maybe you could convert using price data?

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/be_far/statuses/116341244297289267https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/be_far/statuses/116341244297289267Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:28:26 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:26:31 GMT]]>@be_far yeah it's infuriating how often someone just pulls a figure out of who knows where and then everyone else repeats it

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/whitequark/statuses/116341236792907804https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/whitequark/statuses/116341236792907804Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:26:31 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:25:40 GMT]]>@whitequark @riley @Hemera Purge gas is the explanation I had seen, and I had heard also that EUV machines needed it (though apparently, people in this thread are suggesting hydrogen is used ?)

I think it would make sense to have a non-reactive gas atmosphere, though.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.sciences.re/users/Sobex/statuses/116341233418784935https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.sciences.re/users/Sobex/statuses/116341233418784935Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:25:40 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:25:36 GMT]]>@whitequark Oh. Yeah. That could be a use.

@Hemera

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://toot.cat/users/riley/statuses/116341233184471916https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://toot.cat/users/riley/statuses/116341233184471916Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:25:36 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:25:20 GMT]]>@whitequark the one number I’ve ever seen (couldn’t ever find a source, everyone just repeats it) is that one advanced TSMC fab uses 500,000 cubic meters of helium a year. If it’s used as a purge gas like you mentioned in another comment I imagine it’s very low reclamation but I don’t know if that number takes reclamation into account (even if it’s not made up).

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/be_far/statuses/116341232166835183https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/be_far/statuses/116341232166835183Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:25:20 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:21:53 GMT]]>@riley @Hemera consider that helium is also sometimes used as carrier or purge gas (in quantities I'd very much like to know about)

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/whitequark/statuses/116341218602400651https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/whitequark/statuses/116341218602400651Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:21:53 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:21:24 GMT]]>@Hemera As far as I know, all currently used cold vapour deposition techniques of relevance to (mainstream) chip-making can be done at liquid nitrogen temperature or higher. Quantum computer research might have uses for colder ones. It's not impossible that NSA could be using helium-requiring chips in large numbers, and their supplier(s) would have trouble without helium, but I don't know of solid leaks positively affirming such, so far.

@whitequark

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://toot.cat/users/riley/statuses/116341216685795931https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://toot.cat/users/riley/statuses/116341216685795931Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:21:24 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:20:55 GMT]]>@riley yea that's reasonable

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/whitequark/statuses/116341214764795449https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/whitequark/statuses/116341214764795449Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:20:55 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:19:45 GMT]]>from some discussion and research, it seems like one of the major uses is in ESC/BSG wafer clamp devices (https://csmantech.org/wp-content/acfrcwduploads/field_5e8cddf5ddd10/post_6573/15.3_Characterization_of_Electrostatic_Chuck.pdf) where flow of helium is less than 20 sccm per chuck.

this represents about 2 micrograms of helium per second per chuck, which i'm not too concerned about. there are of course some other applications that may consume more helium

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/whitequark/statuses/116341210182825406https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/whitequark/statuses/116341210182825406Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:19:45 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:16:32 GMT]]>@whitequark FWIW, my hunch is, if chipmaking is affected by helium deficit, the troubles would be more likely to hit R&D and possibly the construction of new foundries than ongoing manufacturing processes. Cryocrystallography is a thing in materials science research, and while it used to largely get by with liquid nitrogen, the bleeding^W chattering edge of new research has been shifting steadily coldwards.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://toot.cat/users/riley/statuses/116341197518147727https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://toot.cat/users/riley/statuses/116341197518147727Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:16:32 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:15:24 GMT]]>@be_far thanks. I have some background in vacuum systems so this makes a lot of sense. do you know the ballpark number for how much helium is used, after accounting for reclamation?

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/whitequark/statuses/116341193089890764https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/whitequark/statuses/116341193089890764Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:15:24 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to semiconductor folks! on Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:12:54 GMT]]>@whitequark helium is non-reactive, so it’s used as a carrier gas and a chamber control gas (fill the chamber with it and flow your chemical vapor deposition gases into that environment). Different gases have different effects on the temperature control of the chamber for different materials’ growth processes. As a carrier gas I believe helium has the most use in Si-doping.

A few paragraphs on helium’s thermal properties in https://semiengineering.com/using-less-helium-in-semiconductor-manufacturing/

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/be_far/statuses/116341183221806033https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://social.treehouse.systems/users/be_far/statuses/116341183221806033Fri, 03 Apr 2026 14:12:54 GMT