<![CDATA[Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux.]]>Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. And the use of the phrase "accessibility maximalism" is utterly depressing. Of course we should want maximum accessibility. https://nocoffei.com/?p=451

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/topic/19f1ff12-c683-487e-a12c-fce73b639b87/having-just-read-this-i-m-saddened-that-this-is-still-the-state-of-alternative-input-devices-on-linux.RSS for NodeFri, 05 Jun 2026 14:26:19 GMTSun, 31 May 2026 10:22:30 GMT60<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 16:04:37 GMT]]>@matt @AdrianVovk I don't think anyone is saying we should sandbox assistive technologies, just that applications shouldn't be able to arbitrarily access the things that assistive technologies need to function.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116670036537382039https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116670036537382039Sun, 31 May 2026 16:04:37 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 15:53:27 GMT]]>@fireborn @AdrianVovk I'm not sure that it's possible to meaningfully sandbox assistive technologies. But I do think it's important to prevent arbitrary applications from claiming the privileges of assistive technologies.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://toot.cafe/users/matt/statuses/116669992622171017https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://toot.cafe/users/matt/statuses/116669992622171017Sun, 31 May 2026 15:53:27 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 15:50:13 GMT]]>@AdrianVovk @matt the future is sandboxing however. For security and privacy. I'm inherently in support of a system like this.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116669979918857497https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116669979918857497Sun, 31 May 2026 15:50:13 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 15:48:15 GMT]]>@fireborn @matt Apps that are unsandboxed implicitly have access to everything, bypassing any permissions and entitlements system

This is how, for instance, Orca works today

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://fosstodon.org/users/AdrianVovk/statuses/116669972167010100https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://fosstodon.org/users/AdrianVovk/statuses/116669972167010100Sun, 31 May 2026 15:48:15 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 15:46:59 GMT]]>@AdrianVovk @matt Ask for, no. But a user should be able to go in and add an app manually, in the case where an app is not distributed via an app store system. Not every app is going to request entitlements properly. Unless the app simply won't launch, then I think there needs to be a way around that.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116669967207075845https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116669967207075845Sun, 31 May 2026 15:46:59 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 15:44:48 GMT]]>@fireborn @matt with entitlements, apps have to declare what portals they will attempt to ask for. This way accessibility tools have to be labeled with an entitlement before they can ask for such a dangerous permission.

Then the app store has the ability to review if the entitlement makes sense. A web browser that tries to claim that it's an accessibility tool will be against app store policy and will not be published.

Thus: we make it safe to have a hyper-privileged accessibility API (2/2)

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://fosstodon.org/users/AdrianVovk/statuses/116669958634183918https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://fosstodon.org/users/AdrianVovk/statuses/116669958634183918Sun, 31 May 2026 15:44:48 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 15:42:20 GMT]]>@fireborn @matt We've got a permission system: portals.

However this permission is so so dangerous that we shouldn't let arbitrary apps even ask for it. People tend to click "yes" through prompts. Your web browser should never prompt for AT-level access to the system. Thus we've been avoiding designing "especially dangerous" portals, like what an Accessibility portal would be.

However we now have "entitlements", which I proposed partly for the accessibility purpose. (1/2)

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://fosstodon.org/users/AdrianVovk/statuses/116669948921543692https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://fosstodon.org/users/AdrianVovk/statuses/116669948921543692Sun, 31 May 2026 15:42:20 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 15:37:34 GMT]]>@AdrianVovk @matt Totally agree. That's why a permissions system is important. Mac OS does this really well, seperating permissions for view/control into Accessibility, screen recording, and input monitoring. This gives users control while also not simply granting access by default.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116669930200973299https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116669930200973299Sun, 31 May 2026 15:37:34 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 15:35:58 GMT]]>@fireborn Like, the reason there is this enormous maximalist list of demands for what Wayland needs to provide to support Talon is because that is how Wayland structured itself. It is designed to place all the power in the compositor, and to prevent any other component in the system from co-opting that power unless there is consensus that there is a good reason and it can be done in a controlled manner. Under that framework there's no other possible outcome.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://gamemaking.social/users/SpindleyQ/statuses/116669923885224934https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://gamemaking.social/users/SpindleyQ/statuses/116669923885224934Sun, 31 May 2026 15:35:58 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 15:35:05 GMT]]>@matt @fireborn IMO you can have this access, and you probably do need this access. However we should give this access only to accessibility tools, and not to other software that could abuse it heavily

The parts of Newton that have landed so far already give accessibility tools like Orca higher privileges than normal apps, so that mouse review and key bind grabbing work. The same API could ferry around AccessKit data to the AT, but also give it the ability to see the screen for OCR, and so on

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://fosstodon.org/users/AdrianVovk/statuses/116669920438470457https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://fosstodon.org/users/AdrianVovk/statuses/116669920438470457Sun, 31 May 2026 15:35:05 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 15:28:51 GMT]]>@fireborn yeah, I feel like the Wayland mindset is "these things are the compositor's responsibility, any exceptions need to go through a limited protocol and have their use cases thoroughly vetted to prevent abuse"
And the Talon mindset is "the user knows their accessibility needs better than me, so I will give them complete, straightforward programmatic control over everything"
The only way I can see of reconciling these two mindsets is for Talon to become a compositor

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://gamemaking.social/users/SpindleyQ/statuses/116669895885093688https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://gamemaking.social/users/SpindleyQ/statuses/116669895885093688Sun, 31 May 2026 15:28:51 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 14:40:38 GMT]]>@SpindleyQ In the places where it is a problem that can be solved, it's made more complex by the fact it is compositor specific

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116669706303619793https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116669706303619793Sun, 31 May 2026 14:40:38 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 14:38:59 GMT]]>@fireborn Oh. Oh no.

I used Talon for a bit a few years ago when I was having shoulder problems. It's an incredible empowering technology, a fundamentally new and different way of interacting with your computing. It's also fundamentally built on the premise of scripted low-level control of the entire system UI. This is what makes it so empowering; there are no limits to how it can be extended.

Wayland is fundamentally designed to prevent such automated control. This is probably irreconcilable.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://gamemaking.social/users/SpindleyQ/statuses/116669699841086086https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://gamemaking.social/users/SpindleyQ/statuses/116669699841086086Sun, 31 May 2026 14:38:59 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 13:35:04 GMT]]>@fireborn@dragonscave.space ah, i see, 100% agreed then.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mastodon.catgirl.cloud/ap/users/115437022933800913/statuses/116669448510627232https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mastodon.catgirl.cloud/ap/users/115437022933800913/statuses/116669448510627232Sun, 31 May 2026 13:35:04 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 13:12:27 GMT]]>@tragivictoria I was referencing the need for "intrusive capabilities." I agree that we shouldn't just contiguously hound volunteers for changes without any regard for impact or ongoingwork. Like I've always said, we should celebrate progress.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116669359556516746https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116669359556516746Sun, 31 May 2026 13:12:27 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 13:08:24 GMT]]>@fireborn@dragonscave.space i have no idea what this refers to in my post

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mastodon.catgirl.cloud/ap/users/115437022933800913/statuses/116669343601411547https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mastodon.catgirl.cloud/ap/users/115437022933800913/statuses/116669343601411547Sun, 31 May 2026 13:08:24 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 13:06:29 GMT]]>@fireborn honestly when i read it that phrase just made me angry

anyone who says such things shouldn't have any say when it comes to accessibility

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://tech.lgbt/users/SRAZKVT/statuses/116669336092245209https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://tech.lgbt/users/SRAZKVT/statuses/116669336092245209Sun, 31 May 2026 13:06:29 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 12:18:15 GMT]]>@matt Again, like I said before, Linux, and whale and especially, don't have the mass market adoption to be special. This isn't just in the accessibility space. The effort required to get low-level tooling to work for a niche of a niche of a niche is simply too high.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116669146400798483https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116669146400798483Sun, 31 May 2026 12:18:15 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 12:15:37 GMT]]>@matt I agree with that. I do also agree that low-level access makes accessibility easier, though dumping an entire page of fixes that are needed on volunteers when you have not bothered to triage how impactfu each fix is is its own kind of unhelpful.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116669136103018930https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116669136103018930Sun, 31 May 2026 12:15:37 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 12:14:14 GMT]]>@fireborn So my reading of what he said is that we can't simply demand to have unrestricted, intrusive access to the whole desktop environment simply because that's how we (assistive technology developers, myself included on Windows) have always done it. We need to design new protocols that meet both accessibility and security requirements at once, without compromising either.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://toot.cafe/users/matt/statuses/116669130627977051https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://toot.cafe/users/matt/statuses/116669130627977051Sun, 31 May 2026 12:14:14 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 12:11:50 GMT]]>@fireborn To be clear though, the phrase "accessibility maximalism" was invented by the author of the post. What Matthias Clasen (a maintainer of both GTK and Mutter) actually said was:

> Accessibility-focused people tend to come with maximalist lists of demands ("We need to have all these very intrusive capabilities, or the system will not be accessible *at all*").

Accessibility should not be compromised, but security shouldn't be either. And these projects have very limited resources.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://toot.cafe/users/matt/statuses/116669121230793409https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://toot.cafe/users/matt/statuses/116669121230793409Sun, 31 May 2026 12:11:50 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 12:04:59 GMT]]>@tragivictoria The point of low level access being a necessity is true. There is not a single platform that does not have this, apart from maybe iOS. Linux, and especially Wayland, doesn't have the mass market adoption to be special. As demonstrated in multiple fields at this point, not supporting Wayland for low level tooling is often the more viable approach than putting in the effort.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116669094270726788https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116669094270726788Sun, 31 May 2026 12:04:59 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 11:49:25 GMT]]>@fireborn@dragonscave.space that phrase quite literally was said in context of dumping huge wish lists on volunteers. This is what he said:

I don't feel like answering this point-by-point.
Accessibility-focused people tend to come with maximalist lists of demands ("We need to have all these very intrusive capabilities, or the system will not be accessible at all").
Practical day-to-day improvements on accessibility of Wayland desktops happens in the Accessibility room on the gnome matrix instance.
The work that is happening is on two tracks in parallel:

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mastodon.catgirl.cloud/ap/users/115437022933800913/statuses/116669033032531459https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://mastodon.catgirl.cloud/ap/users/115437022933800913/statuses/116669033032531459Sun, 31 May 2026 11:49:25 GMT<![CDATA[Reply to Having just read this, I'm saddened that this is still the state of alternative input devices on Linux. on Sun, 31 May 2026 10:49:22 GMT]]>@leaferiksen I have also never seen this blog before. I had heard of Talon in passing, but had no idea that things were this bad.

]]>https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116668796957927057https://board.circlewithadot.net/post/https://dragonscave.space/users/fireborn/statuses/116668796957927057Sun, 31 May 2026 10:49:22 GMT